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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

LGB Alliance to plan helpline with Lottery funding

959 replies

pombear · 10/06/2022 20:29

Fantastic news.

I would link to their Twitter announcement, but in usual state of play, Twitter has marked it ' may not be appropriate for people under 18'. A helpline planned for 13 to 25 year olds, planned by a panel of experts in child protection, education, helpline delivery, fundraising and psychology.

Yep - shut them down (much better to have helplines planned by IT workers who took their child to Thailand...)

As LGB Alliance state there is no dedicated national service of its kind for young LGB people in the UK.

I'm sure the Lottery Fund will be getting a lot of feedback right now, given the outpouring of hyperbole against LGB Alliance right now on Twitter.

So they may appreciate feedback from those who may see this as a positive move too:

""We really value your feedback. If you have a comment or complaint about the services that we provide, or if there's something important you think we should know, we'd love to hear it. Please email us at [email protected]"

LGB Alliance to plan helpline with Lottery funding
OP posts:
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17
Helleofabore · 17/06/2022 16:01

In fact the 'feelings' those 18-24 felt when asked both:

How would you feel if your child, sibling, or close family member came out as gay/bisexual/lesbian?
How would you feel if your child, sibling, or close family member came out came out as transgender?

show those extremes.

They have the highest ratings in the following emotions:

Understanding
Proud
Happy
Excited
Angry
Disgusted

Or are you saying these reactions are not extreme emotions and actually judgemental when you consider them? "proud', 'happy' and 'excited' are obviously judging positively vs 'angry' and 'disgusted' being negative judgement.

They are hardly neutral. And they are all 'reactive'.

No wonder there is such a need for more services. And specific services too.

Conflictedunicorn · 17/06/2022 16:04

Oh, wasn’t one of the founders of stonewall campaigning for PIe, and said sex with children was not necessarily bad for the children. Wasn’t that Peter Tatchell?

Starlee · 17/06/2022 16:08

Hearach15 · 16/06/2022 13:54

When someone turns up at Pride wearing an LGB Alliance they get booed.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2021/08/29/lgb-alliance-manchester-pride-protest/

They are completely outside the mainstream of the community because the vast majority of gays, lesbians and bisexuals support trans rights. Whoever is attending their conference is on the fringe of the community.

Stonewall on the other hand are applauded because they do proper work - like getting LGBT people out of Afghanistan:

www.gov.uk/government/news/uk-government-helps-lgbt-afghans-start-new-life-in-britain

No wonder so many bigots hate them. They actually deliver for the LGBT community.

That's what I've always loved about Pride events, it's always such a wonderful inclusive celebration and protest, based on love, inclusiveness, unity, community, LGBTQ+ all happy together and supported by the general public, just how it could always be 😎
Such a shame when bigots try to spoil it.

Conflictedunicorn · 17/06/2022 16:11

@starlee But weren’t some lesbians banned from pride events for stating they wouldn’t date TW? How is that inclusive and supporting lesbians?

Helleofabore · 17/06/2022 16:11

Helleofabore · 17/06/2022 16:01

In fact the 'feelings' those 18-24 felt when asked both:

How would you feel if your child, sibling, or close family member came out as gay/bisexual/lesbian?
How would you feel if your child, sibling, or close family member came out came out as transgender?

show those extremes.

They have the highest ratings in the following emotions:

Understanding
Proud
Happy
Excited
Angry
Disgusted

Or are you saying these reactions are not extreme emotions and actually judgemental when you consider them? "proud', 'happy' and 'excited' are obviously judging positively vs 'angry' and 'disgusted' being negative judgement.

They are hardly neutral. And they are all 'reactive'.

No wonder there is such a need for more services. And specific services too.

I mean, I am just doing a cursory glance over the raw data. I could run some correlations if you'd like. I would need to dig out my uni statistics texts, but I am very happy to do so.

Or, I could just graph it too.

The data is rather interesting, and to be fair I have not looked into the methodology yet. Just looking at the questions, I would say there is a distinct bias in the questions asked. Such as asking a question about 'hormone blockers' without pointing out the health risks that most health systems now acknowledge are there in those drugs use. Same with the cross-sex hormones.

I find as someone who has commissioned quite a number of focus groups and questionnaires that those biases should not be there. It would be ethical to make sure respondents are aware of the many health risks before asking that question.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 17/06/2022 16:15

That's what I've always loved about Pride events, it's always such a wonderful inclusive celebration and protest, based on love, inclusiveness, unity, community, LGBTQ+ all happy together and supported by the general public, just how it could always be 😎

This is a response to an article about a gay man getting booed and intimidated by the crowd because he turned up at Pride with a T-shirt the mob didn’t like.

Do people like this ever get tired of talking like background characters in a dystopian novel?

Helleofabore · 17/06/2022 16:15

I repeat earache

What did you 'correct' about my statement below?

"Perhaps you might be surprised to also realise that young people are also some of the least tolerant people in the UK."

Did you notice I used the word 'also'? Did you look at the other studies I suggested? What did you 'correct'?

ArcheryAnnie · 17/06/2022 16:23

NecessaryScene · 16/06/2022 17:51

I mentioned three achievements from the past two decades - which you've now rejected as immaterial because they are "historic".

They're not immaterial - they're just as much LGB Alliance's achievement as Stonewall's, given the way that the people involved back then have ended up split between the two organisations.

The current Stonewall organisation is running down the goodwill generated by the historic actions of both current LGB Alliance and Stonewall members.

LGB Alliance is continuing the original work of Stonewall supporting gay and lesbian rights.

The current Stonewall is undermining its original work by calling homosexuals "sexual racists".

I was an ordinary volunteer back at the very beginning of Stonewall. I carried boxes of flyers and condoms at festivals, I sat on committees, I did all the things you have to do to try and help a small campaign get off the ground in a hostile environment. Those were the days when to walk in a Pride March was a political, risky act, not the result of your corporation buying a ticket.

I barely recognise the bloated, homophobic behemoth Stonewall has since become. And if you'd told me in those days that I'd ever describe Stonewall as "homophobic", I wouldn't have understood at all. Yet here we are.

I'm now a supporter of the LGB Alliance.

Helleofabore · 17/06/2022 16:28

ArcheryAnnie

If you don't mind, could you point us in the direction of the significant successes that Stonewall won in the first 3 years?

Are there some that spring to mind?

Just so we can make sure we are comparing like for like as much as possible. Only this time I guess, the hostility towards LGB Alliance is from within the Stonewall alphabet community, maybe more so than from extremists outside the Stonewall community.

Artichokeleaves · 17/06/2022 16:32

That's what I've always loved about Pride events, it's always such a wonderful inclusive celebration and protest, based on love, inclusiveness, unity, community, LGBTQ+ all happy together and supported by the general public, just how it could always be

Yes. And the government is run entirely by kittens and the Queen gave birth to triplets yesterday. Yay! Smile

DeaconBoo · 17/06/2022 16:33

Starlee · 17/06/2022 15:48

You want me to answer someone else's question for them? I didn't realise you had so much faith in my opinion!😂

You seem incredibly muddled - you genuinely don't know the answer to this question?

(It was a question I asked citrus, because there seemed to be lots of confusion about what being 'heterosexual' was and they were saying it was a problem that heterosexual people supported the LGBA.)

As you also displayed the same confusion, I was hoping to clear up whether you believe a heterosexual person could be gay. Your subsequent answer suggested that yes, you do.

And your inability to say 'yes I believe that' or 'no I do not' suggests you are disrespectful enough to start using words - that people on this board describe themselves as - that you can't even define.

Artichokeleaves · 17/06/2022 16:33

If you don't mind, could you point us in the direction of the significant successes that Stonewall won in the first 3 years?

I'll wait with interest and respect for Annie's reply as someone who was there from the start!

I'd suggest one of the biggest however was 'managed to stay afloat without being stamped out', due to the risks Annie mentions.

Helleofabore · 17/06/2022 16:39

The more voices pointing us in the right direction the better really.

DeaconBoo · 17/06/2022 16:42

The question (you know this, of course, I'm just trying to get it clear) is a subordinate question to that involved in the well-known mind/body problem ('mbp'): how do (non-material) minds relate/interact (causally and otherwise) with (material) bodies?

Tbh I was trying to ask at a much more basic level than this - starlee states that certain types of soul/mind/psyche "match" certain types of body. Indeed, starlee's whole understanding of what it is to be trans (and their insistence that some people have wrong bodies) is based on this.

I had assumed this meant 'people with XX bodies have a certain type of mind/soul, and people with XY bodies have a different type' - otherwise I don't know how you can have discrete types to 'match' with the discrete types of body.

Yet again, though, Starlee has said something they can't explain or clarify. I am open to seeing which kinds of minds they think match with female people , and which kinds of minds match with male people.

They don't know. They are pretending to know what trans people say but haven't even bothered to find out what they mean.

I can only conclude that there is no such thing as a type of mind (personality, soul, psyche, character, whatever you want to call it) matching a type of body.

ArcheryAnnie · 17/06/2022 16:42

Helleofabore · 17/06/2022 16:28

ArcheryAnnie

If you don't mind, could you point us in the direction of the significant successes that Stonewall won in the first 3 years?

Are there some that spring to mind?

Just so we can make sure we are comparing like for like as much as possible. Only this time I guess, the hostility towards LGB Alliance is from within the Stonewall alphabet community, maybe more so than from extremists outside the Stonewall community.

The most significant thing to me at the time is that we were holding our heads up high - remember this was in the wake of Section 28. And we were getting organised.

The LGB Alliance is serving the same kind of purpose now - its helping LGB people find each other, it's helping us hold our heads up high as same-sex-attracted people, and it's enabling us to get organised.

Stonewall now has something like 160 staff, and more money than god. It makes me weep to think what good those kinds of resources could do. As one of Stonewall's founders said at the launch of the LGBA, he really didn't want to set up another organisation for LGB people, because he thought he'd already done that. But there was no choice, as that first organisation was largely no longer working to further the interests of LGB people.

Helleofabore · 17/06/2022 16:52

I have had a look on their website for campaigns that LGB Alliance have been heavily engaged in.

First one was EHRC action:

One of our first actions when LGB Alliance was formed was to start to engage with EHRC about the public confusion on issues relating to sex and gender identity, and the misrepresentation by some organisations of the specifics of the Equality Act 2010.

That guidance has now been issued.

Second one was Census action:

With a month to go until the census on March 21, campaigners have launched the Sex in the Census campaign to protest the last minute decision by the Office for National Statistics (ONS) not to ask people to answer accurately with their biological sex.

LGB Alliance was one of 15 small grassroots organisations in the coalition that delivered this as a success.

There are other campaigns that are still active and not finished.

The group seems to have had their voice heard in the Hate Crime Bill (Scotland), The GRA Reform consultation, and most recently ensuring LGB peoples rights are maintained in the 'End Conversion Therapy' bill.

Hardly a zero report card I must say.

DeaconBoo · 17/06/2022 16:52

For anyone reading, starlee, citrus, whoever. I personally am not too concerned if you can't explain the things you claim to believe. You wouldn't be the first, for sure. But when you scroll by the question addressed to you, and you think internally 'I'm going to ignore that' - ask yourself why? Is it a knotty one? Something that might challenge what you think? Does the question itself make me feel uncomfortable?

Bigoted people would not care. Bigoted people would be so keen to cling to their pre-existing ideas that anything challenging it is brushed off without examination - usually the logical fallacy that 'the person asking it isn't nice' or something makes them feel ok about it.

But open-minded people would grapple with it. Hmm. Why can't I answer? Is it ok if this is something I'm not settled on? What does it mean about me if I deeply believe that certain bodies 'match' or 'align with' certain types of souls or psyches? Would I believe that Black and white bodies have certain types of minds? Perhaps it isn't the individual's mind or body that's wrong - it's society's expectations of that person? Should a body be changed to fit society's expectation? Should a soul be changed?

These ^^ are suggestions, not anything I'm asking directly or expecting an answer about. I would be happy to answer any non-flippant question in return - in fact, I thought that was sort of the point of discussion forums.

Other questions that never get a response:
What is a woman?
Can you set out what you think gender critical people believe, in a way that those people would agree accurately reflects their beliefs?

I do believe that without having some sort of common understanding of what each other means by these things, it's pointless talking about sex, gender, gender critical people, etc.

Helleofabore · 17/06/2022 17:06

Thank you Annie and artichoke. I did suspect that was the case.

So a correct 'comparison' would be to look at the achievements within the first three years if some posters want to get snarky and declare When the LGB Alliance get off their arse and do something useful and Stonewall on the other hand are applauded because they do proper work.

But I would expect that me pointing out that it is a false comparison will be ignored because it doesn't fit with the demonisation agenda that some posters have going on here on this thread.

Some really confused and maybe even propagandist thinking coming through on this thread. I cannot use a word that other PP's have also hinted at because it is a deletable word. But it isn't 'cuntish' behaviour that I am worried about.

ANewCreation · 17/06/2022 17:39

Thanks Hearach and Starlee for getting back to me on what it means for my oldest to call themself non binary and gay. Respectively, 'no idea who they are attracted to/weird question' and 'ask them'. Which...yeah.

To me, this encapsulates the breakdown in our shared language around sex and sexual orientation. When my friends first came out as gay decades ago, what would have been truly weird would have been to say, 'Thank you for telling me. What sex does that mean you are attracted to?' Because gay=same sex attracted. Here we are 4 decades on and LGBTQ+ advocates on here can't say whether a male person who says that they are gay is more likely to be attracted to male or female people. 🤦‍♀️

On this board, the regular posters who describe themselves as lesbians use the shared common meaning of the word 'lesbian'.

So if someone asked me 'who are those posters most likely to be attracted to?' I can confidently assert, never having met them, that they are female people attracted solely to other female people. Because the word 'lesbian' - like the word 'woman' and 'female' is already taken and describes a discrete group of people. It should not be repurposed because the group of people it describes still exist and need it for their protection in law.

The sine qua non of Lesbianism is that it involves female people only.

Is it possible for humans to change sex? No. So can a biologically male person ever, in any circumstances, be a lesbian? No.

What if all their friends/the media/controversial lobby groups say they are lesbian? Still no.

If a female person plans to stay in a happy long term sexual relationship with a male person, are they a lesbian? No. They are heterosexual or bisexual. Again, perfectly valid sexualities, but not gay.

What if the male has long hair and nail polish and has had facial feminisation surgery and bottom surgery and a GRC and calls themself she/her and Katie? Still not a lesbian/woman/female.

Make up some new words, if you like, to describe these 'new' sexualities. Words to describe the group of people who are attracted say to extremely feminine males, or masculine females. Knock yourself out. It is not going to be useful in law because, when it comes down to it, there are only really four options when it comes to sexual orientation: same sex, opposite sex, both sexes, neither.

Naturally, my oldest is attracted to whoever they are attracted to. Not really any skin off my nose. Yet if, say, as a male person, they are exclusively attracted to female people, (believing that they share a gender identity) that would be a perfectly valid sexual orientation, just not a gay one... And their needs and experience - and possible need for a helpline - would be entirely different if the exclusive object of their sexual attraction was fellow males...

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 17/06/2022 17:47

I’m still waiting for Starlee or any of the others to comment on Nancy Kelley of Stonewall & the Garden Court barrister equating lesbianism with racism.

prefabrout · 17/06/2022 17:55

What I don't understand is that I've read on here many times how Stonewall decided after gay marriage was made legal and almost universal acceptance of LGB people there was nothing left to achieve and they needed to pivot towards the T to stay relevant and keep the funds coming in, if this is the case why is there suddenly a need for an LGB only organisation?

Helleofabore · 17/06/2022 18:02

Maybe because Stonewall is being run as a charity ‘business’ and needed to secure funds to feed itself.

Leaving LGB people with no representation just for their needs. Therefore a new grassroots organisation that doesn’t have the overheads that Stonewall have had been created to fill that need.

It was a business decision.

Stonewall could have wound back to fit a budget that was sustainable, but made the decision the other way.

TastefulRainbowUnicorn · 17/06/2022 18:02

if this is the case why is there suddenly a need for an LGB only organisation?

idk, could it be because homophobia has escalated to the point that the head of a respected charity that has influence over hundreds of major corporations and government department is saying openly on the BBC that same sex attraction is “sexual racism?”

prefabrout · 17/06/2022 18:07

Maybe because Stonewall is being run as a charity ‘business’ and needed to secure funds to feed itself.

LGBA is a registered charity.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 17/06/2022 18:12

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 17/06/2022 17:47

I’m still waiting for Starlee or any of the others to comment on Nancy Kelley of Stonewall & the Garden Court barrister equating lesbianism with racism.

It was Cathryn McGahey QC, a witness for Garden Court, who drew the analogy between this workshop exploring how “ideologies of transphobia and transmisogyny impact sexual desire” and South African racial integration and who implied it was possible in a non-coercive way to persuade a same-sex attracted lesbian she might want to have sex with a trans woman.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/29/if-lesbian-prefers-same-sex-dates-thats-not-bigotry-desire-personal-thing

In this metaphor, Allison (a black, lesbian, working class survivor of sexual abuse) is Eugene Terreblanche and India Willoughby is Nelson Mandela.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4558576-sonia-sodha-on-mb-and-the-cotton-ceiling?

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