Helen Joyce/Helen Staniland "Trans Elimination" video

[momentsinthewind]

I've just seen a video on YouTube with HJ and HS and HJ is saying that we need to return to a sane world and everyone who has transitioned is damaged and will need special accommodation (detransition treatment?) in the future.

I'm GC and have many concerns about safe spaces and sport etc, but this just seems to be going too far.

I found it quite upsetting if I'm honest.

Ok @JemimaPuddlegoose I doubt your post will be reported by any of us regular posters, mainly because what you posted needs to be seen by many.

Now, be a good puddlegoose and give us a direct quote of that anti semitism.

Or ask MNHQ to delete your post, as you misspoke. Use the report function. They would probably be happy to comply.

TRAs were waiting for the moment they could pounce on anything Helen Joyce said to denounce her as evil and someone who shouldn't be engaged

They were, and as I have pointed out on either this thread or the other one, they've already tried the anti semitism accusation but it didn't stick.

god the bad faith ‘GC as they come’ posters are tiring

They took 'woman'.

They are trying to take 'female'.

And now the batsignal has gone out to say 'im GC me but...'

Next phase is already in progress which is to say that Female Sex Hormones give them 'periods without the blood'...and PMT headaches so that they can take 'menstruators' by the time the next census is out.

I don't know whether Helen's solicitors will deem that post defamatory. But at least it's proving my point about how people are desperately trying to stop anyone listening to her.

I agree completely with what Helen Joyce was saying, but I think the way she expressed herself was very unwise.

Anyone sensible understands that what she is saying is that anyone who medically transitions is a life-long medical patient, which has huge health implications for them as well as cost implications for the rest of society. Obviously we want the number of people needing that level of care to be as low as possible.

But anyone sensible also understands that the batshit TRA brigade would seize on these kind of comments and say...well, exactly what they have said.

It was pretty tone deaf I think, and not helpful to the GC cause.

Yes if she'd just said "medically transitioned" it could have all been avoided

Yes if she'd just said "medically transitioned" it could have all been avoided

Women have been taken to court over ribbons that allegedly resembled something sinister when tied to a fence.

I question whether a liberal use of "medically transitioned" would have pre-empted this brouhaha and would have been sufficient to deter bad faith interpretations.

No, I don't think it would. And I think many people are getting a little sick of having to sugarcoat everything they want to say, in order to appease a lobby group they heartily disagree with and who are trying to dominate them.

Every single person knows by now that it doesn't really matter what you say. It will either be misinterpreted or edited and seized upon to find any old bollocks offence.

Look at the absolute nonsense that J. K. Rowling had about ignoring porn directed at children - the accusations were coming from the very men who were sending her the dick pics! Or all the crazy that Kellie Jay gets. Every single word pounced on and stuck in the mangle.

So why bother to even try. Just get on and say what it is you want to say.

Let's get that Overton window moved along.

Wow some great talking points in there.
The thing that really got me thinking was the section when they were talking about the potential for homophobia in parents that were keen to promote the idea that their kid was transgender rather than dealing with the fact that they could be gay.
Not going to happen in all cases, or even a majority but I would bet that it's not a statistical anomaly either.

Yeah, I don't think saying "medically transitioned" would have helped either.

I think that the tide of public opinion is starting to turn, and it's really unfortunate that she said something which can quite easily be twisted into "Helen Joyce wants to eliminate trans people".

She could quite easily have stuck to, for example, talking about the lifelong medical issues faced by people who have taken hormones or had surgery, and mentioned the regrets of detransitioners, without saying we need to reduce their numbers (which is implicit in that anyway).

So why bother to even try. Just get on and say what it is you want to say. Let's get that Overton window moved along.

Along with just letting the people doing the distortion wear out their goodwill.

There's a limit to how often people will be prepared to listen to them if they keep being so liberal with the misrepresentation.

I was onboard with the GC side fairly rapidly because it was apparent when I looked how full of shit the other side was with repeated failure to address actual points and repeated misrepresentation of the GC side's arguments. I was actively looking for that on both sides - and only one side clearly failed the test - but others may well not be and take longer to spot the patterns.

The more they misrepresent, the more people will notice them doing it, and the more support they lose. So we can keep baiting them into it, and they can just keep going. Fine by me.

They're going to be spouting nonsense either way, but being clearly immediately counter-factual by misrepresenting something someone has just said undermines their credibility more obviously and clearly than the usual unfounded claims about research and evidence bases.

Every single person knows by now that it doesn't really matter what you say. It will either be misinterpreted or edited and seized upon to find any old bollocks offence.

Look at the absolute nonsense that J. K. Rowling had about ignoring porn directed at children - the accusations were coming from the very men who were sending her the dick pics! Or all the crazy that Kellie Jay gets. Every single word pounced on and stuck in the mangle.

So why bother to even try. Just get on and say what it is you want to say.

Yep. So tired of people trying to appease TRAs. Nothing is ever going to be enough, so it's better not to start. I think the Helens have dealt with this insane situation quite well.

Goodness, I’ve had a post deleted. I can’t for the life of me think why??? If anyone saw it and can explain, I’d appreciate a DM (probably not safe to say why on this thread!)

I didn’t misgender anyone, just talked bout East German female athletes and testosterone…

If you report the deleted post and ask you should get an explanation. I have done that a couple of times. It helps get your head round the meaning of 'not in the spirit' etc.

THanks @SamphirethePogoingStickerist I'll have to think whether I can be arsed ...

Unlike our unseen monitors, I actually watched the whole of the discussion between the 2 Helens.

Off topic, but fascinating to learn that Helen Joyce was doing the Tribunal Tweets at Allison's tribunal when Kirren Medcalf (sp?) was giving evidence and during the revelations about the various support personnel/animals. I paraphrase slightly I think (but not by much): "My typing was impeded by my jaw getting in the way of my typing hands".

I watched the convo around the time it came out, and I didn't see what Helen Joyce said as problematic in the context of the whole discussion. But I did multi-task and of course I wasn't focusing on trying to find statements which could be misconstrued, so I will now watch it again.

As an aside, I have done lots of online warfare against various types of MRAs and misogynists in the past, and those were very frightening experiences in a few cases.

I am beginning to believe that many of the most vocal TRAs online are, in fact, more threatening, and it's not just in a few cases. There's something odd about many of them. Perhaps narcissistic rage? When no amount of apologies will reduce the attacks and the rage that would be one possible explanation.

I think we're seeing that in this instance @nepeta (BTW, I think you posted on another thread about colonisation as a metaphor - brilliant post!)

fascinating to learn that Helen Joyce was doing the Tribunal Tweets at Allison's tribunal

I don't think HJ said that but rather that she and some others at sex-matters.org were transcribing where they could to create a patchwork and partial record. I'm happy to be corrected if I'm wrong.

Unless I misunderstood her, she said it at about 22 minutes in? m.youtube.com/watch?v=8_u1MQFjxvI

@GoodThinkingMax , thank you so much. Made my day.

Well, it's a cut-out-and-keep post for me. And one I need to remember for the next inevitable complaint from my students that I"m transphobic when I teach women's history. THey're very hot on decolonising the curriculum, so the colonial paralllel is perfect ...

As a mum of a trans daughter it's really upsetting. My child almost killed herself but has now found peace by socially transitioning (the medical stuff will take years). The idea that people are out there spouting this ideology is just frankly terrifying. I thought I could stop worrying for her life when she came out, but now I worry even more.

Helen is worried about your daughter. I'm sorry you believe that changing her body will fix her mind.