Helen Joyce/Helen Staniland "Trans Elimination" video

[momentsinthewind]

I've just seen a video on YouTube with HJ and HS and HJ is saying that we need to return to a sane world and everyone who has transitioned is damaged and will need special accommodation (detransition treatment?) in the future.

I'm GC and have many concerns about safe spaces and sport etc, but this just seems to be going too far.

I found it quite upsetting if I'm honest.

I'm glad your DC has found some relief from gender dysphoria by socially presenting in a different way.

I think it's a pity we can't accept radically gender non-conforming people - Im assuming your child is biologically male - what's wrong with ultra-feminine men?

What you refer to as "this ideology" is actually a lot of rational, medically & scientifically informed people wanting to limit the potential long-term harm that can be inflicted by untested, experimental drugs. Artificial hormones are very strong chemicals.

They want your DC to try to align their body & their mind through talking therapies and "watchful waiting" before resorting to powerful & experimental medical & surgical interventoins. Extreme dysphoria is a mental imbalance between mind & body (like anorexia).

How is this "terrifying"? Have you watched the discussion? Both Helens are extremely compassionate & deeply worried about the long term consequences of what is, in part, a social contagion.

I'm sorry for your worry. A suicidal child must be devastating. Can I ask how old they are?

The reason is that puberty blockers are given at the onset of puberty, so not necessarily years away. And almost all children on blockers go on to cross sex hormones. Which have lifelong, serious consequences. This isn't about one individual, it's about the wholesale acceptance of a non evidence based ideology.

It is this which the Helens (and women here) want to address. How children are getting to this stage and why. Suicidal children, desperate to be the opposite sex, is something which needs to be urgently examined.

Can I ask if you know the reasons your child has gender dysphoria? Have they been able to explain it to you? The answers to those questions is what the NHS needs to be looking at.

I do hope you've getting the support you need.

How is this "terrifying"?

Of course it's terrifying.

If you've put your child on a path to, well, anything, someone saying it's harmful and unnecessary is terrifying. There's a few possibilities:

1. They're right, and you're harming your child.
2. They're wrong, but in good faith, which would mean that the evidence isn't clear, and it's not certain that you're doing the right thing.
3. They're wrong, and in bad faith, despite the totally strong evidence what you're doing is right. In which case why are they lying? What's their agenda? And they have whole groups behind them spreading these lies about your child!

Every possibility there is terrifying, in the position of a parent who has put their child on a path. And number 3 is the explanation that will be clung to for as long as possible, as the one that keeps you in the not-quite-so-terrifying world where you're doing the right thing.

The psychology here works for putting kids on a path to "transition", but it would work in many other situations where a parent has committed their child to something.

The only non-terrifying position is utter faith in what you've done and not entertaining any doubts, which means not listening to non-believers at all. "Safe spaces".

That's the psychological grip this religion has on its followers. Their children.

But coming here to say you're "terrified" is a start. It's the first step to working through it to determine the truth. Do the Helens just hate trans kids, or is there a reason they're saying what they're saying?

Do the Helens just hate trans kids, or is there a reason they're saying what they're saying?

Exactly. There's no doubt there is a certain cohort who desperately want people to think it's the former, but, the obvious misrepresentation and all the 'genocide' nonsense, etc, would get people quietly backing away from that.

If your child has found peace by socially transitioning, that is presumably by changing name and clothing then why would they need any medical interventions?

The problem is the people that have told them they can change sex, not the people who state that taking very strong drugs for the rest of their life will give them lifelong medical problems.

And this hyperbole that Owen Jones et al set out to enrage means that no therapist is able to actually speak to them and support them otherwise they may lose their jobs.

That's terrifying.

Heads up as these threads may have attracted a lot of reporting yesterday Mumsnet data breach www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4564197-mumsnet-data-breach-1

If your child has found peace by socially transitioning, that is presumably by changing name and clothing then why would they need any medical interventions?

Yes, this means that they might just be gender nonconforming if it's mainly about stereotypes of presentation and behaviour. 'Being trans' is nothing to do with those stereotypes (at least that's what we are continually being told).

I'm genuinely sorry that you and your child are in this situation.

I'm sure you've already done a lot of research but I would seriously urge both you and your child to make sure you understand the long term implications of puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and elective surgery.

I can't help but feel that this issue is a sign that society has actually gone backwards in terms of how we see men and women.

If your child believes they identify as the opposite sex, what do they think that means?

What do they believe a boy is and what do they believe a girl is?

Because the way I see it, there are only two possibilities.

Either you believe a boy is a child of the male sex, i.e. born with a penis, and a girl is a child of the female sex. Or you believe that "boy" and "girl" are both identities.

If your child believes the former, do they understand that no matter what name and pronouns they use, no matter what they wear, and no matter what superficial changes they make to their body, they can never ever change sex? All medical transition will do is turn them into a lifelong medical patient who will be dependent on drugs and doctors for the rest of their life. It will drastically reduce the number of people willing to consider them as a romantic or sexual partner, and it will in all likelihood mean they can never have children of their own. Will doing all these things really make them happier and healthier than trying to learn to live with the body they have?

If your child believes the latter, what do they believe the features of the identities "boy" and "girl" are? Boys like blue and girls like pink? Boys like football and girls like shopping? These are incredibly sexist things to believe. And completely false, because there are many, many people who do not conform to gendered stereotypes typically associated with their own sex. Why can't they just be themselves without seeking to make serious and irreversible changes to their body which have a high rate of complications?

I'm not trying to lecture you and I'm sure you've had many sleepless nights thinking about all of these things yourself.

But I do think the old "I'd rather have a living daughter than a dead son" trope is hugely worrying. I'm sure some trans identifying children do have suicidal thoughts. What is less clear is whether those feelings actually go away after transition. And there is plenty of evidence to suggest that children are advised on forums such as Reddit and other online trans communities to say they are feeling suicidal in order to frighten their loved ones into affirming their gender identities.

As parents we can only do what we think is right at the time. I wish you and your child all the best.

Helen couldn't care less about trans people. She see them as "problems" and wants them to conform without exception even if it makes them miserable.

She's the problem in this scenario.

So sorry to hear that. I really hope Joyce's words are a wakeup call for just how cruel and callous this movement is.

Trans people are not "problems" they add colour and joy to our world.

I really like this quote by trans author Jan Morris, I think it sums up perfectly why LGBT people should be allowed to live our lives in peace, freedom and safety:

"What was important was the liberty of us all to live as we wished to live, to love however we wanted to love, and to know ourselves, however peculiar, disconcerting or unclassifiable, at one with the gods and angels.”

In Helen's defence, there are already a lot of very powerful people and groups who care so much about trans people that they are willing to throw various other groups under a bus.

I don't doubt that Helen is concerned about people damaging their bodies to treat a psychiatric condition, but clearly her priority is women.

And around we go…

No. Read the thread. This has been refuted again and again. You are spreading misinformation again.

The problem is that a lot of trans people seem to think that they are the only ones who should have such freedom, and that their freedom should be allowed to infringe on others' rights.

I don't want to be forced into a box with trans women just because they say we share a gender identity, when I don't agree that we do.

"what's wrong with ultra-feminine men?" Nothing, but they are not trans women. This suggests you have not engaged seriously with trans women if you don't know that they don't want to be men whether feminine or not.

Also HJ is not "compassionate", she wants even happy trans people to detransition just because the existence of trans people makes her uncomfortable. It's an authoritarian and bigoted attempt to impose her worldview on them.

She should leave them to live their lives in peace.

Helen Joyce talks about this in her latest blog post. She’s made it free to view. www.thehelenjoyce.com/joyce-activated-issue-8/

Also HJ is not "compassionate", she wants even happy trans people to detransition just because the existence of trans people makes her uncomfortable.

I'm not sure where you're getting this from.

I understood her comments to mean she wants fewer people to medically transition because they are harming their bodies which has negative consequences for them and creates an additional burden for society.

Once someone has transitioned the damage is done in that respect, whether they detransition or not.

LGBT people should be allowed to live our lives in peace, freedom and safety:

"What was important was the liberty of us all to live as we wished to live, to love however we wanted to love…”

so does this just apply to “LGBT people”, or are the rest of us allowed these things as well? Can we ‘live as we wish to live’ with single sex spaces? can we ‘love however we want to love’ without being called transphobic? Are we allowed ‘peace, freedom and safety’, or is that reserved just for ‘LGBT people’?

Helen Joyce: "presenting the outside world as desperately risky to keep adherents scared and close, and make it less likely that they listen to any other points of view. They are whipping up fear and hatred in an already vulnerable group, and making it more likely that someone does serious harm, either to themselves or to others."

This is exactly what GCs do! To quote Rabbie Burns:

"O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us. To see oursels as others see us!"

Also, the idea she is at all concerned about trans people - who is she trying to fool! She thinks they are literally ALL problems even if they are happy.

This.

@Hearach15 "Helen couldn't care less about trans people."

It seems you may not have read / heard carefully anything Helen Joyce has written / said. She cares very much about "trans people". She also cares about the sexed nature of our bodies and the need those who were born female have for single sex spaces, services, sports etc.

So what we have to do is balance the needs of the majority of females against the desires of those who are born male and who claim they are not men.

That balance is tending towards creating protection for all via the establishment of third and separate spaces for all those who claim they are not the natural sex they were born.

"what's wrong with ultra-feminine men?" Nothing, but they are not trans women. This suggests you have not engaged seriously with trans women if you don't know that they don't want to be men whether feminine or not.

Also HJ is not "compassionate", she wants even happy trans people to detransition just because the existence of trans people makes her uncomfortable. It's an authoritarian and bigoted attempt to impose her worldview on them.

I wonder how much you've engaged with HJ's writing.

And whether you think your other claims are consistent with HJ's personal friendships with TW?

Just came here to post the blog link too Empress. Well worth a look. I suppose it's too much to ask that her critics bother to read it.

She should live them to live their lives in peace

… and once again, will TRAs leave women (and men) to live their lives in peace, as they see fit, or do we all have to live by the rules of transgenderism?

For years feminists have been saying "my body, my choice" - why are trans people suddenly exempt from the right to make decisions about their body?

And if you haven't watched the full video she mentions how "even those who are happily transitioned" are a problem. Personally, I think if transition makes trans people happy they should do it.

Watch the video here if you haven't:

twitter.com/joss_prior/status/1532511819583062025?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1532657174593556480%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es3_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinknews.co.uk%2F2022%2F06%2F03%2Fhelen-joyce-transgender-lgbtq%2F

I wouldn't let her (or the Government) make decisions for me about my body, thus I wouldn't allow them to do the same for trans people. It's called a free society.

Bonkers that she would regard her friends as "a huge problem to a sane world".

If I met up with my friends and they kept telling me, "You know you are such a huge problem to a sane world", they would not be my friends for very much longer.

I only hang around with people who do not regard me as a "problem" to be dealt with.