Helen Joyce/Helen Staniland "Trans Elimination" video

[momentsinthewind]

I've just seen a video on YouTube with HJ and HS and HJ is saying that we need to return to a sane world and everyone who has transitioned is damaged and will need special accommodation (detransition treatment?) in the future.

I'm GC and have many concerns about safe spaces and sport etc, but this just seems to be going too far.

I found it quite upsetting if I'm honest.

For anyone reading who is in any doubt; you are free to request a female HCP. This should be a female person, not a man or a transwoman or a male non-binary person, because the relevant characteristic is biological sex.

You should never feel pressured to submit to anyone's demands that you date them, accept care from them, or do anything that in any way makes you feel uncomfortable under threat of them feeling hurt.

The fact that some people appear to wish death on a person for requesting a female HCP and refusing care from a male person is unpleasant, but illuminating. Thankfully its very commonly understood that women may request a female HCP. This is in no way a problem and will only upset an HCP where they are placing their feelings above those of a patient.

The reasons that women may choose same sex HCPs are many, personal, and varied, and it's absolutely abhorrent to either question these reasons or label a woman 'transphobic' for wanting a female.

It would be interesting to link to all sorts of news items about women being treated with great misogyny or with violence based on misogyny, because those, too, matter in how we perceive the overall societal framework in this case.

Yes, certainly transgender people are harassed and even assaulted, and that is disgusting and wrong and should not happen. But women are also frequently harassed and even assaulted, and that is also disgusting and wrong and should not happen.

But it's still worth pointing out that transgender people in the US and the UK are less likely to become the victims of homicide than the average likelihood. This is good news as the violence transgender people report is at least not of the worst kind of all.

unlikely. at the risk of being indelicate, straight women like to have sex with a person with a functioning penis

regardless of what surgery they have had, no transman has this

in addition around 80% of women get pregnant. no transman can get a woman pregnant, so even leaving sexual orientation aside, they will be a less desirable partner for a straight woman who would normally expect to bear her partner's baby

It's important that people who are going to put themselves through punishing surgery understand the position they will be in when it's done

so even leaving sexual orientation aside, they will be a less desirable partner for a straight woman who would normally expect to bear her partner's baby
This is the feminism board, right?
Or have I taken a wrong turn and stumbled onto some Conservative Family Values Site by mistake?

she was describing what does happen not what ought to happen according to a particular viewpoint. 80% of women do have children, a significant number of them may not want to be in a relationship where there is no chance of bearing their partner's children. Do you disagree with that?

you don't believe me that 80% of women have a baby at some point in their lives?

you don't believe me that it's pretty normal for straight women to expect their partner to provide the other half of what's required to make a baby?

honestly, it's like all you people have forgotten how babies are made

Can you give an example of what makes you say that @JAduchey? Perhaps you have also misunderstood what posters have been saying.

Very much this. ^^

It is rather dog in the manger and reminiscent of Sarah's case regarding rape crisis:

There is no reason to try to deny women same sex hcps other than not wanting women to be allowed to say no to gender identity. For someone who wishes this (looks hard at SNP) there is a preference that women are left without services, even essential and life threatening services, rather than that behind closed doors somewhere where they are bothering no TQ+ person, a woman is allowed to have her sex based needs met. In Helen's case, no female only women's group could be permitted to exist even in a separate building or different part of town, as it would be too repugnant for people following this ideology to tolerate knowing it was out there. That somewhere, rape victims were receiving care in the only way they could access.

These are the harms that people like Helen Joyce are pointing out. They need pointing out and properly discussing.

honestly, it's like all you people have forgotten how babies are made
"You people?" 😕
I know perfectly well how babies are made, this body has made more than one

you people = the one's who try to claim sex isn't a thing

your body could not have made a baby without the introduction of sperm

no transman could provide that for you

yup, I agree with you there, although generally the regulars (or the ones that haven't been banned yet) pop up to point out that just because someone understands what man and woman means, it's doesn't mean they care about women.

In fact, in general those people thoroughly believe in gender. they just believe that only female bodied people can have a feminine gender, and only male bodied people a masculine one. I clutch my forehead every time someone tries to imply that Jordan Peterson is a friend to women.

I quite enjoy the conversations though

I don't think noting that gametes are required from both a man and a woman to make a baby puts me quite in that camp though

you people = the one's who try to claim sex isn't a thing

your body could not have made a baby without the introduction of sperm
Yes, I know this. I know how babies are made.

Don't know if you're mixing me up with someone else, but I've never tried to claim sex isn't a thing.
no transman could provide that for you
Yes, also well aware of that.

So is it the links, or is it the talking points? If it's the talking points, aside from gender identity, what is the overlap?

When I see links to the likes of Matt Walsh, Tucker Carlson etc, there are endless discussion about their politics and view points and whether or not it's appropriate to connect with their criticisms of gender ideology given their other beliefs/positions.

Plus discussion about how the "no debate" culture of the centre and left wing press makes it almost impossible for any discussion of the clash between gender identity and women's rights.

Ok, that quoting went a bit wrong!
Try again 😁

you people = the one's who try to claim sex isn't a thing
Don't know if you're mixing me up with someone else, but I've never tried to claim sex isn't a thing.

Your body could not have made a baby without the introduction of sperm
Yes, I know this. I know how babies are made.

no transman could provide that for you

Yes, also well aware of that.

JAduchey was presumably just hopping on to fling some mud in the vague hope it might stick. I doubt he or she will be back, as these non-sequiturs don't really amount to much more than casual (presumed) insults.

(They are presumed to be insults because the fact is that most feminists veer left. On the topic of gender and sex, however, women (and men) from all over the political spectrum are in accord. The large majority agree with the women of FWR, whatever their political leanings.)

Hagiography

yes Hagio, I do suspect that the particular poster was taking an opportunistic sledge where they could.

I do have a laugh when the constant ‘you are all right wing, look who you support’ threads come up. It is ridiculous to think this many left wing feminists became ‘right wing’ or ‘conservatives’ over the past few years . But it does suit some people to try to put others in boxes labelled to suit their own political views.

Most of the posts on the threads about male presenters are usually posts telling others to fuck off with attempting to use extremist activist tactics to shape where regular posters get their information and what they make any positive comment .

I expect that some posters who have their own prejudices about FWR regular posters, will take any opportunity to attribute whatever asinine view they choose on that day. This was just a drive by plop I guess.

@Hearach15 What exactly is it that makes transwomen women? And potentially attractive to heterosexual males or homosexual females?

The gender-critical position is fairly clear: "woman" designates an adult human female, and the female of any mammalian species is defined by the reproductive pathway that produces large gametes, has the potential to bear young etc. It's a position that's grounded in biology and evolution but with zero implication that women must fulfill that pathway. What is your definition of woman? What is it that a person with the small gametes, penis and prostate pathway, has in common with a female?

Well, many feminists want kids and usually they want them to be with their partners not some random.

I have found the simplistic language to match the simplistic and un-nuanced thinking of those who seem to be fully engaged and unwavering in their support of extreme activist thinking.

‘I like’, ‘I don’t like’, ‘anti-trans’ and analogies that simply don’t work and the focus on them as false ‘gotcha’s’, further shows the lack of coherence in the arguments put forward. The lack of coherence and the reliance on emotional manipulation.

It is not just on this thread, but it is across FWR and the rest of social media too.

The thing that keeps me going though is the knowledge that the majority of the population are being to voice their discomfort too, once they start to unpick it all. I remember the constant ‘FWR are the minority view’ until the past few months when activists realised just how dishonest that was and how easy it was to disprove.

It seems that like the IOC’s acknowledgement that they know males in female sport categories is unfair but it should be all about feelings, opened the gates again to attempting to force the majority to accept incoherent arguments for the sake of feelings.

Helleofabore
I do have a laugh when the constant ‘you are all right wing, look who you support’ threads come up. It is ridiculous to think this many left wing feminists became ‘right wing’ or ‘conservatives’ over the past few years .

Yes, it does smack of 'shoot the messenger' rather than engage with the actual message. This idea that you have to agree with everything a person says is tedious. I can agree with one thing Tucker Carlson says/ does and profoundly disagree with something else.

I also agree that it's quite astounding how many people are so ready to believe that a bunch of left wing liberal women suddenly turned into hateful bigots overnight. Actually, I would say that women were (and still are) far more accommodating and accepting of gender non conforming men (it used to be mostly men) than men were.

So what changed? Well, the law for one - Self ID law which states that somehow men can become women with just a piece of paper, and this gives them automatic access to women's spaces.
Women know and understand the inherent problems with this. So we pushed back against it, knowing that this legal fiction has implications for women and girls. And suddenly we are the hateful ones. For wanting to acknowledge biological reality is very important in certain circumstances.

I guess that makes us all horrible bitches eh?

Helleofabore

It seems that like the IOC’s acknowledgement that they know males in female sport categories is unfair but it should be all about feelings, opened the gates again to attempting to force the majority to accept incoherent arguments for the sake of feelings.

What bugs me about this, is that it's so obvious that it's male feelings that are routinely prioritised over female feelings.

Yes, it's nice to accommodate someone's feelings, especially if they are distressed. But in the example of a biological male in women's sport - why is the male persons feelings more important than the female competitors who are losing out? Don't their feelings matter too? I'm sure many of them are feeling pretty hard done by, but they don't really count.

Not when a super special male has come along who needs his feelings validated. Competitive sport should not be a validation excercise.

Yes. The only reason anyone thinks it's okay for a male to compete in female sports is because male feelings will be hurt otherwise. There is no other reason.