Helen Joyce/Helen Staniland "Trans Elimination" video

[momentsinthewind]

I've just seen a video on YouTube with HJ and HS and HJ is saying that we need to return to a sane world and everyone who has transitioned is damaged and will need special accommodation (detransition treatment?) in the future.

I'm GC and have many concerns about safe spaces and sport etc, but this just seems to be going too far.

I found it quite upsetting if I'm honest.

The medical system is a not a menu service. There is a reason that medications, for example, are prescribed rather than having people just go and ask for what they want. And that it is an offence for doctors to give them out just because.

They are correct that there is a cost to society to transition. Medically, but also things like change rooms or prisons that need third spaces. It's not that society should balk at people who really need extra resources. But it looks a bit different when we are suddenly talking in terms of adults'choices to do what they want with their bodies. Because it does not involve just an individualistic outcome.

Yes. We’ve seen the deliberately cropped videos and the transcripts.

Maybe you’d like to add something to the discussion rather than post the transcript yet again? Maybe you’d like to transcribe the next minutes even that expand on what she has said?

Why be upset at "cropped transcripts" of thousands of words of text when you agree with the words either way?

The next section where she talks about the homophobia at the Tavistock and more widely within the trans movement is interesting. Has anyone transcribed that?

The next section where she talks about the homophobia at the Tavistock and more widely within the trans movement is interesting. Has anyone transcribed that?

Not seen it posted anywhere, OldCrone.

Why be upset at "cropped transcripts" of thousands of words of text when you agree with the words either way?

This is beyond lazy.

You could crop and mess with videos of the queen's speeches until they said something truly stupid and misleading and then claim 'but you agree with the queen's speech so you agree when (we made it say) I eat hamsters'.

Get a grip for goodness sake.

This kind of behaviour just reminds me of a group of very unpleasant girls at primary school who used to pick on some unfortunate and follow them around for hours, chanting "Your mum got your skirt from Oxfam" like a pack of little hyenas. Nothing said would shut them up, there was no answer that could change the chant, until eventually the fed up victim would snarl "ok, whatever, my mum got my skirt from Oxfam".

Cue cries of glee and more tromping around at the next level, shouting "she SAYS her mum got her skirt from Oxfam...."

I mean that's sad enough in a bunch of ten year olds.

I saw a You Tube documentary about lobotomy a while ago. A miracle cure for mental illness. It was used as a 'cure' for homosexuality among other things. Basically it involved sticking an ice pick into the brain and moving it around.

www.thevintagenews.com/2017/01/14/walter-freeman-who-championed-lobotomy-in-the-us-was-touring-with-his-lobotomobile-demonstrating-the-procedure/?safari=1

Can't seem to find the documentary itself right now but will continue looking for it.

Sorry, I was interrupted by the first phone call of the day. Mentioning lobotomy as a clear parallel to transitioning. A fashionable treatment that 50 years later looks barbaric and left more than 20,000 people in the US irretrievably damaged.

All this fuss about a quote completely taken out of context and deliberately twisted but not a word about the death threats. It's a TRA tune and we're dancing to it. Condemn Prior's napalm posts then get back to me.

All this fuss about a quote completely taken out of context and deliberately twisted but not a word about the death threats.

As ever. Funny that the trans lobby's "optics" aren't terrible, isn't it?

This. I haven't seen one curious or good faith take on this from the TRA side (although admittedly am mostly seeing this through what the Helens quote tweet). It's a blood in the water thing. No one asking for clarification or any kind of intelligent discussion.

Just, literally, "they said ACCOMMODATION they mean CONCENTRATION CAMPS they are NAZIS they WANT TO KILL US ALL this is THEIR PLAN". They leap straight to death threats and mocking up Hitler moustaches on HS.

And nobody has the slightest curiosity to even think 'how likely is that, really''?

There is something deeply troubling about the reaction to this.

So wanting people to be happy and healthy and not subject to distress that leaves them sterilised and crippled and on lifelong drugs is now 'elimination'?

No.

The reason they take absolutely every thing out of context and hype people up into a frenzy is specifically to stop anyone saying anything in case they get piled on by frenzied often quite violent activists. This isn't a flaw in the system, it is the system

Funnily enough, just caught this thread about this. Don't know anything about Heterodorx but at least someone is saying it out there:

twitter.com/heterodorx/status/1533263959641448448?s=20&t=EmpkOwbXkxIPJH7TJJ29rA

Because it is context. Because it further explains the use of blunt words.

Is it the blunt words that you’d like to have taken out of context? Or do you have something else? Anything?

Because from here you seem to gleefully plop down a cropped transcript and you don’t even have anything else to say? What are YOU accusing her of?

And by the way, here are some questions to answer if you?

Medical drug treatment causes side effects, which is damage to the body?

yes or no?

Is trans a health issue that requires medical drug treatment ?

yes or no?

Has this treatment been properly researched in light of current cohort of young transitioners?

yes or no?

(hint read Dr Cass’s interim report)

Have trans groups demanded male priority over females in some instances where sex matters?

yes or no?

Is this something a ‘sane society’ should countenance immediately or have many, many debates and studies before making such decisions?

yes or no?

See the issue is the idle doesn’t even have the confidence to really discuss the issues.

Please idle, tell us your interpretation of the words you have plopped down. Have a go at framing it they way you want to interpret the ‘thousand words’.

Or are you just taking your cues from twitter on a truncated transcript. One that cuts off the further explanatory discussion.

You lot do like to take it to extremes. It’s possible to understand that the Helens didn’t mean actual concentration camps and genocide of trans people while still finding their words problematic in the way it was phrased in a live, unedited video.

Lots of trans people don’t medically transition. What about them?

You're far more optimistic than I am that MPie's comprehension of videos is better than MP's comprehension of text, as demonstrated on many occasions on FWR. That even includes links that MP introduces as a 'gotcha' that tend to painfully reveal that MP either didn't read the link (kindest interpretation) or didn't understand it.

Treatment that can lead to someone in their 20s and 30s having spinal fractures as their bones disintegrate?
People in their 20s and 30s are ADULTS.
Grown adults.
All medication can come with side effects, surely?

This is where we see an outstanding example of understanding broader context. I understood the comment about the bones and spinal fractures to be referring to people who had initiated treatment at a young age (including as teenagers) and who had developed the osteoporotic bone structure over time.

Yes, medication typically has side effects. That's why it needs to be taken as a risk v benefit proposition and to be in the context of a shared decision-making discussion and informed consent of a full understanding of side effects and their frequency.

What about them? They are perfectly entitled to live a fantasy. But the rest of us should be under no obligation to indulge it. But companies and public bodies are under immense pressure and relentless lobbying to change their rules and policies to prop up the fantasy.

And that's a problem for those of us who don't want to join in.

Lots of trans people don’t medically transition. What about them?

They weren't mentioned in the clip being shared. Indeed "trans people" was never used at all. So why start talking about "trans people" who were not the subject of that segment?

I mean we've been asking for a definition of way trans actually means for years now, but we're the ones taking it to extremes?

If not everyone transitions, what makes them 'trans' when apparently saying 'im trans' is all it needs....so therefore that means they have already started a process of transitioning?

Quite the conundrum.

What about them? They are perfectly entitled to live a fantasy. But the rest of us should be under no obligation to indulge it. But companies and public bodies are under immense pressure and relentless lobbying to change their rules and policies to prop up the fantasy.

This. And it was made perfectly clear, you would think, for the hard of thinking, that the "sane world" referred to a world where the truth of sex was acknowledged. They specifically said those words.

I want to be a conscientious objector to gender identity ideology. I don't believe it or agree with it. It's harmful and regressive. It's a problem for me if I can't say this, like it would be a problem for an atheist to have to pretend god exists.

It's the same basic problem that keeps coming round again and again, getting bigger each time.

Political lobby: Everyone, if you dare say x, we will insist on interpreting it as y and rush around making z threats of self harm, endangerment, and various means of punishment to others and escalating it as high as we can. So don't ever say x.

It's worked in small increments for quite a long time on some.

However we're reaching the point of many people saying: If you choose to interpret x as y this is not our problem, and z is inappropriate and unacceptable behaviour in a civilised society regardless of your reasons. And should be treated in the same way as any other person or group doing z.

It's going to go on getting bigger: both in the demands, the push back and the extremist response of 'we insist on interpreting it like this, so look what you made us do! You may not say those words, mention that fact, hold that opinion, express any other belief'.

It's never going to work. It really is never going to work. Not all truths will ever be silenced, not all people will ever agree to shut up and obey and comply permanently, there is no other way to achieve this save by endless whackamole and increasing and upping the z anti. Those busy whipping up a lot of vulnerable young people have a great deal to answer for.

You lot do like to take it to extremes.

Er, go and look at the frothing on Twitter, that's exactly what is being suggested by TRAs and their supporters, some with big platforms.