Helen Joyce/Helen Staniland "Trans Elimination" video

[momentsinthewind]

I've just seen a video on YouTube with HJ and HS and HJ is saying that we need to return to a sane world and everyone who has transitioned is damaged and will need special accommodation (detransition treatment?) in the future.

I'm GC and have many concerns about safe spaces and sport etc, but this just seems to be going too far.

I found it quite upsetting if I'm honest.

It's going to go on getting bigger: both in the demands, the push back and the extremist response of 'we insist on interpreting it like this, so look what you made us do! You may not say those words, mention that fact, hold that opinion, express any other belief'.

Yes. It's all about power and control. It's worth reading about narcissistic supply and narcissistic rage.

Us ‘lot’?

What about those who don’t medically transition?

Well, good that they don’t become lifelong patients in need of further surgeries and drugs to cope with the reactions of their initial medical transition.

Are they still demanding for males to be prioritised ahead of females where sex matters?

Because that still counts as issues that a ‘sane’ society has to find solutions for that prioritises those that need it despite the demands from others that they be included as well. And based on what evidence for that inclusion in the solution?

So, yes? What about non-medical transitioned males?

You lot do like to take it to extremes. It’s possible to understand that the Helens didn’t mean actual concentration camps and genocide of trans people while still finding their words problematic in the way it was phrased in a live, unedited video.

My point was - quick look at Twitter shows nothing but that kind of language from TRAs. Exactly that language, I wasn't making it up for effect.

If they find what HJ and HS were saying problematic then there's every opportunity to take that up with them as grown adults, rather than this sinister performative dehumanising of two normal women that has raised quite a frightening mob of angry pitchforks.

If they find what HJ and HS were saying problematic then there's every opportunity to take that up with them as grown adults, rather than this sinister performative dehumanising of two normal women that has raised quite a frightening mob of angry pitchforks.

Exactly. Anyone who defends this is the one who should be fucking ashamed of themselves.

This, but also, most societies put limits on what people can do with their bodies to protect people with disordered thinking from themselves. In the UK we don't allow people to sell their organs for transplant purposes and surgeons aren't allowed to do amputations on request from people with body dysmorphia. We have age limits below which people can't have tattoos or intimate body piercings. We have case law which says people engaged in BDSM activities can't kill or maim each other with impunity even where they can prove the person maimed or killed was asking for it to be done (at least, I think that's what I remember of a tricky case from a few years back). We have very tight restrictions on testing medicines for safety and the most dangerous ones can only be prescribed by a doctor.

Why would it be any different for medicines and surgical procedures carried out on request by people with gender issues? Why would we give HCPs a free pass to do whatever their patients want without any attempt to look at the evidence base and see if these people's health is actually going to be better or worse after the procedure? This is especially important in the UK because the NHS, and therefore all of us as taxpayers, is going to be picking up the tab for any remedial treatments needed later on.

Owen and Pink News could have invited either Helen along for a discussion about what they meant.

But that would mean talking to women (bleurh). And they don't do that sort of thing unless they have t-shirts on regarding situations in which the women suck cocks for.

And so it goes.

This, but also, most societies put limits on what people can do with their bodies to protect people with disordered thinking from themselves. I haven't quoted it all, but thanks for that excellent post Gasp.

It's all so utterly tedious. The characteristic response of trans activists to gender-critical arguments is one or all of the following:

1. You are literally killing us with your words.
2. Your words are inciting people to kill trans people.
3. Your words are causing trans people to kill themselves.
4. You are just like Hitler and the Nazis.
5. You are inciting genocide.

On and on it goes, and if they have to selectively edit, twist or just plain lie what gender-critical people have said, they will. Why? Because real arguments, using reason and evidence, in support of the TRA position, don't exist. It is an idiotic, anti-scientific worldview that collapses under a moment's scrutiny.

TRAs were waiting for the moment they could pounce on anything Helen Joyce said to denounce her as evil and someone who shouldn't be engaged. If it involves wilfully misinterpreting or selectively editing something they couldn't care less about actual truth. So they'll add this to their canon law and forever more say 'Look, Helen Joyce says trans people should be exterminated We will not discuss anything with her and you shouldn't either'.
It's all they can do. They can't debate the points she raises so she has to be shunned and turned into a figure of hate. They do this with EVERYONE who questions their narrative.

The fundamental point is that what HJ said is valid and can be justified if detransitioners exist, in anything other than numbers so low they're lost in the statistical noise. That's what "the harm, and that means reducing or keeping down the number of people who transition" is about, that transition for those who would ultimately desist, is likely to be harmful.

Trans activists would win this point if detransitioners, effectively, don't exist. One reason they're so confident is that according to the gender identity ideology, detransitioners in meaningful numbers simply cannot exist.

Writing this reminds me that I always need to have clear in my head the differences between detransitioners and desisters.

The detrans group on Reddit has nearly 32,000 members.

Helen Joyce is a real problem for transactivists. She has rock solid credibility and her book is impressive.

If they think deliberately misinterpreting her it's going to affect her credibility, and not theirs, they are sorely mistaken.

if they think their unhinged ranting is not going to make way, way more people watch that podcast, then that's another mistake.

Helen Joyce wants to get to the decision-makers.

This is the way she's going to do it.

Bloody hell.

Seriously? I had no idea. Well, what does that tell you?

Well obviously it tells us that these people were never really trans to begin with. Which means that everything is fine. Or something.

(Just so long as you put out of your head the maxim "you know that someone is trans if they say they are".)

Although there's nothing to say that all 32,000 members are detransitioners themselves, presumably? (I'm not seeking to detract from the fact that there are very many more of them than TRAs would like to acknowledge.)

I'm as gender critical as it gets but I had to stop reading Joyce's book halfway through due to some truly horrendous and vile antisemitism.

Just because someone is GC doesn't mean they're a good person. I find this whole ideology "we must blindly support anyone and everyone who thinks x" deeply sinister.

What was the horrendous and vile antisemitism?

I believe that the antisemitism allegation originates from a book review by Alex Sharpe? Joyce claims, and I have no reason not to believe her, that she wasn't being: www.thehelenjoyce.com/a-wild-ride/

I'm as gender critical as it gets

No you're not.

Hold on a minute, Jemima. We can't see where the horrendous antisemitism in Trans was. Be a duck and point it out for us.

It reminds me of that clip of Anne Ruzylo calling the activists who bullied her out of her job "bastards".
The trans activists carefully edited it, then claimed she was speaking about all trans people.

My mistake, Sharpe references Joyce's rebuttal in his review of her book and so doesn't appear to be the source of the antisemitism allegation: criticallegalthinking.com/2021/10/08/review-of-helen-joyces-trans-when-ideology-meets-reality-london-oneworld-2021-pp-311-rp-16-99-and-kathleen-stocks-material-girls-why-reality-matters-for-feminism-london-fle/

I have no idea how many of them are detransitioners or desisters @TheBiologyStupid. But it is a very busy and tightly moderated forum so the posters, even if not all the subscribers, are young people who have detransitioned or who are going through it/thinking about it.

It makes for pretty sobering reading

Libellous rubbish

unless you can back up that allegation @JemimaPuddlegoose ? Oh yes, you can’t because it’s bollocks

god the bad faith ‘GC as they come’ posters are tiring