Do pronouns feel alien to anyone else?

[janeseymour78]

By this, I mean I have friends who are 100% pro pronouns as a show of support and we've had our debates, and then there are others who say it is unhealthy to reinforce stereotypes, eg. By using them on work signatures

For me though, adding she/her pronouns to everything and even having being asked what they are verbally, she/her feels alien to me in a visceral way. I'm curious about this because I have several friends who don't share that feeling at all.

Im GC and I don't believe people are binary. I have elements of feminity and masculinity that whatever else that form who I am. I know I'm a woman, I have endometriosis so I'm painfully aware, as well as all the other reasons women are made aware of their sex.

It comes down to adding 'she/her' to everything would not feel right to me, as though it didn't reflect me. It would like I was falsely reinforcing my womanhood when I don't live my life that way or feel that way. Am I making sense? Do others feel this way?

No it doesn't make sense at all
i mean I wouldn't be announcing my pronouns because they are bloody obvious but why do you think female pronouns 'falsely reinforce womanhood'? Sounds like a trans talking point to me.

Where did this obsession with pronouns come from? I remember seeing Jeremy Corbyn on telly introducing himself, probably at a Labour Party conference and saying his pronouns were he/him. Well, duh! I can tell that by just looking. And all the Momentum types gave a massive cheer. Who introduced it! It pisses me off, I'm with KJK/PP on this one.

Maybe you're non-binary

Or just normal? I don't know anyone who has 100% feminine traits or 100% masculine traits.

OP - I get what you are saying. By using pronouns you are suggesting that you are fitting in to a series of stereotypes that you don't necessarily buy in to.

I think your feelings make a lot of sense, OP.

I think it's because the act of announcing your pronouns doesn't just say what sex/gender you are (or in the case of some, what sex/gender you consider yourself to be contrary to all empirical evidence), it also announces that you buy into an ideology that equates being ok with being referred to as she or her, with being defined according to stereotypes of womanhood, and with asserting that you have the choice in whether to be female or not and that your femaleness has nothing to do with your physiology.

And that's not your reality or anyone else's. Of course it feels uncomfortable to feel forced by social, political or professional pressure to label yourself in that way in order to prop up the fantasies and vanities of others.

The only time I have wished me and my manager had them in our signatures was when a man was frankly rude and unpleasant to one of our younger, female staff. He asked to be referred to her manager so 'he' (the manager) could sort all this out. He got me. And my manager? Sorry mate, it's women all the way up.

Otherwise it's an exercise in virtue signaling. There's one man I work with who has these, BLM, flags of various kinds... all the virtue. He can't actually do his job supporting my clients and more than once I've had to do it for them. The clients are vulnerable.

I’m not doing it. It’s unnecessary. I wouldn’t make statements about my physical condition to support people with other physical conditions. I don’t state my race, sexuality or faith. My ‘gender identity’ (if I had one) is none of anyone else’s business and I am female to anyone with eyes.

Yes, I know what you mean. I have a female name and clearly look and sound female, so the thought of adding "she/her" feels like I'd be wanting to really hammer the point home and draw attention to my sex or femininity or whatever. I'm perfectly at ease and happy to be a woman, but it feels odd for anyone (male or female) to be laying emphasis on their sex, in the context of routine work communications.

Imagine if you started every meeting with "I'm Heather, just started here in the Finance team, and I'm a woman". "Hi, I'm John, I work in Marketing and I'm a man". "Hi everyone, I'm Stuart and I'm also a man, I'm the CEO", etc.

I think it brings up two issues.

One, it emphasises that we are female in a male dominated world, when we know that focussing on our sex rarely makes life easier.

Two, rather than being a proud, positive statement, for most women it is both a statement of the obvious and a signal that we are submitting to an ideology that demands this, despite not believing it's necessary.

I absolutely won't be doing it.

I say I haven’t decided upon a preference yet. That gets lots of kudos and respect 😂

Well this is it. I'm told that all the pronouns do is signal inclusivity so it's no big deal (a few friends have said this, male and female) whereas for me it is a big deal because it feels false.

Thankfully at my work no one does it and I can't see them doing it any time soon.

Most people who have a gender identity seem to believe that it is other peoples business, in that other people are expected to affirm it any cost.

Well yes, I'd say so - because to me that would be the default.

My parents raised me without stereotypes. In shops I got things from both girls and boys departments. Although I look quite feminine I was seen as having a tomboy personality. I think now that just be seen as being well rounded as an adult!

What? Are you seriously suggesting that feeling uncomfortable with a ridiculous fad that only popped up recently makes you no longer a woman?? 😆

Trust your instincts. It feels false because it is. Everyone can tell what sex most people are without announcing pronouns.

Of all the things in the universe I am concerned about or have a view about, this is pretty much at the end of the list. If people want to announce their pronouns, I have no problem with it but don't promise to remember what they said. They way i see it is that people who know me well enough know who I am and I don't care what anyone else says or thinks.

OP you do make sense. For me it reinforces the false idea that there is a binary - feminine and masculine and people fall into one or both or neither. It disallows the idea that people change. It also gaslights people and young people in particular in disbelieving what they see and being able to articulate that. Which is a safeguarding risk. I have been flabbergasted by the number of women I have previously held respect for rolling over for this. When I see pronouns announced now, to me it indicates an inability to think through a complex argument I'm afraid.

I don’t feel comfortable about declaring my pronouns on my email signature, because it would be a confirmation of an innate sense of gender (according to current orthodoxy) that I don’t feel I have. Like the OP, I know I’m a woman because of my biology and my lived experiences, and have no problem with other people referring to me as a “she/her”, but then again “they/them” wouldn’t bother me at all, and although I’d find “he/him” a bit surprising, it wouldn’t upset me or trigger any dysphoria.

Unfortunately I missed the talk from Stonewall they had at work when the option of pronouns was introduced, but from what I gather they are important for people who DO have a strong, innate sense of a gender identity, and as I don’t, declaring them feels like crashing someone else’s party.

Would it (or does it) bother you if someone thought you were not the sex you are? I have a friend who sometimes gets mistaken for a man and it does bother her. However she is GC.

I guess it might bother me if someone thought I was a man ( I think I might see it as not being seen as attractive) but putting my pronouns on my email would not change it.

I think if pushed at work I will either argue that I don't want to declare my sex or I will put - she/her/he/him/they/them - and see what they make of that.

I have never been mistaken for a man and doubt I ever will be as outwardly I look feminine - so it is difficult for imagine.

This pretty much sums up how I feel. It wouldn't bother me if someone called me they/them necessarily, although I would see it as an assumption/way of them attempting to be inclusive and therefore buying into the ideology.

I don't mind being called she/her, it's how people have always referred to me. As I am a woman, it is fine and makes sense as part of the course of a normal conversation. But reinforcing it in any way just feels wrong.

If your innate sense of gender identity is so strong why do 'they' have such meltdowns when people forget/don't know/don't care and default to reality? If you are a woman who believes they're a man or vice versa then surely that's something you carry within you! Why the desperation for validation from family, friends and complete strangers.
It's all about the validation. Is it because it's not strong. It's because they know it's drivel and a performance.

^ That 100%. I’m not doing it.

Not at all. I'm not particularly feminine in my presentation, and when I had short hair and wore bomber jacket, jeans and men's shoes (yeah, wide feet as well), i was frequently assumed to be male from behind. I've been challenged in women's toilets as well. But the moment I speak out turn around the other person has recognised that I am female. And always apologises.

I have never been offended by these mistakes. People see what they see and I am what I am. I was miserable for years because I wasn't dainty and feminine like my classmates, and I was teased for it, too. But I have to love the skin I'm in because it's the only one I've got, allergies and scars and all. What's the point in being upset because someone misreads the social cues and body standards? That's their problem, not mine. Of course a woman should feel able to challenge a person she's suspects may not be a woman.

Oh, and to add to that my name is uniformly taken to be masculine in this country (feminine in my parents' country of origin), so I get double-takes when meeting someone for the first time after email conversations. Not offended. Amused!

I've managed to get by for 40plus years without announcing my preferred pronouns to everyone so I refuse to start now. It's obvious by my name and to anyone who can see me that I'm female.