Do pronouns feel alien to anyone else?

[janeseymour78]

By this, I mean I have friends who are 100% pro pronouns as a show of support and we've had our debates, and then there are others who say it is unhealthy to reinforce stereotypes, eg. By using them on work signatures

For me though, adding she/her pronouns to everything and even having being asked what they are verbally, she/her feels alien to me in a visceral way. I'm curious about this because I have several friends who don't share that feeling at all.

Im GC and I don't believe people are binary. I have elements of feminity and masculinity that whatever else that form who I am. I know I'm a woman, I have endometriosis so I'm painfully aware, as well as all the other reasons women are made aware of their sex.

It comes down to adding 'she/her' to everything would not feel right to me, as though it didn't reflect me. It would like I was falsely reinforcing my womanhood when I don't live my life that way or feel that way. Am I making sense? Do others feel this way?

Yes, I completely agree. This is why I don't like being called a CIS woman too, because from a pro pronoun perspective that means I identify with the false stereotypes of femininity and I don't and never have done. I identify as a woman but from a gender perspective I suppose I am non binary, but I do not wish to be referred to as a them. It is clunky and impersonal to me.

You're the only ones who bring up anything about a "stereotype".

Several people who are non binary have said time and again that they prefer the label because they reject gender stereotypes and don't identify with them. I don't either and would argue I don't fit any binary. But then - surely most people don't?

But that's just it - I don't appreciate being attached to any label. It doesn't fit me. If it fits others, that's fine.

I don't understand how current gender ideology isn't about stereotypes though? I'm genuinely open to being educated otherwise. Mermaids once published a gender scale, which was based on stereotypes like action man and Barbie, they said to identify transgender children as those who play with toys for the opposite gender. What are those without stereotypes? When people I know have changed gender, they have changed their name and their clothes and their hair. This suggests that dresses, high heels and long hair is only appropriate for women and crew cuts, chinos and shirts for men. The non binary flag is half pink and half blue (stereotypes). Without stereotypes there is no gender.

I think a lot of the weirdness of it isn't from the sex reference, it's because of the grammatical element. Listing a bit of grammar after your name is weird. "Hi, My Name is Mangey, and I am first person singular." Listing a bit meant to facilitate more efficient communication is counter-productive.

The labels I'm referring to are the labels of "man" and "woman".

It just doesn’t bother me at all.

@user375242
> gender scale, which was based on stereotypes like action man and Barbie

Literally the only circumstance where I ever see anything of that sort, it's from GC people clinging to a single slide from a single presentation from whoever knows where (such things are easily fabricated), as if it were the very foundation of trans identity itself.

It's not.

Gender identity does not have to align with gender expression at all. Gender identity is not at all dependent on "stereotypes". Butch trans women exist.

This is the best reply. Totally sums up how I feel about it all.

I don't find pronouns themselves uncomfortable, but I do find it weird if I'm asked for them. Even if it's only filling in a form online.

Well, it wasn't fabricated as this defence of it indicates: mermaidsuk.org.uk/news/statement-in-response-to-mail-on-sunday-and-sunday-times-coverage-of-dfe-guidance/

@IcakethereforeIam "...If you are a woman who believes they're a man or vice versa then surely that's something you carry within you! Why the desperation for validation from family, friends and complete strangers.It's all about the validation... because it's not strong. It's because they know it's drivel and a performance."

That is absolutely spot on because if TWAW then being a woman should be like air that you breath - nothing needs to be said because it just is.

There are all sort of aspects of my identity that are actually real that I don’t announce in my email signature. Mainly on the basis that nobody cares or needs to know.

So if I’m not going to announce any of the things that are real, why would I announce a gender identity, when I don’t even have one?

As far as I can see, it's just another stick with which to beat women. When I dropped DD at uni, there were lots of older students helping out. A lot of the young women (obviously women, looked like women, dressed like women, sounded like women) had labels with their names and 'she/her'. I don't think a single lad bothered with 'he/him'.

It was the first time I'd seen this pronoun bullshit in the wild, other than a single 'she/her' sign-off on an email.

Historically, other people have decided on your pronoun. They look, they make a decision about sex (not gender) without (usually) consciously thinking about it, and go from there.

@IcakethereforeIam

I was religious kid but was very private about it. The following poem was meaningful to me as I felt quite sinful and bad for keeping my beliefs private.I haven't thought about it in years but this thread has me recalling it and thinking that with a few good-natured edits it would be an appropriate response to the coercive shame-inducing dogmatism being peddled by pronoun evangelists

Without edits:

"I need not shout my faith.
Thrice eloquent
Are quiet trees and the green listening sod;
Hushed are the stars, whose power is never spent;
The hills are mute: yet how they speak of God!"

With edits

"Females need not shout our sex.
Thrice eloquent
Are quiet trees and the green listening sod;
Hushed are the stars, whose power is never spent;
Even when our lips are mute: how our very selves speak of womanhood!

And then you call being trans a religion.

If "nothing needs to be said", then why do you insist on saying it? Why does "biological reality" need social and legal reinforcement?

Why do you insist on demanding it? Why does personal belief need social and legal reinforcement?

Because if we must have those categories, then the ability to choose gives people greater freedom, live their lives the way they wish to live.

Fine, live your life the way you wish. But accord me the equivalent and stop shoving your dogma down my throat.

That’s great, I’m all for greater freedom, honestly. The problem that I see is that people who genuinely don’t have strong innate sense of a gender identity are being compelled to declare one anyway. Fortunately for me, email signature pronouns are optional at my workplace, but I’ve heard from people who feel under considerable pressure to declare without an option for “any” or “no preference” being available.

Gender identity does not have to align with gender expression at all. Gender identity is not at all dependent on "stereotypes". Butch trans women exist.

What is it then? Please explain. Why do some males believe they are women?

When I get an email with pronouns in the signature it's like a slap to me. As historically pronouns have been associated with sex, and using them carelessly has been considered rude ('who's 'she', the cat's mother?') is what I was taught. It's like Ash Sarkar's twitter bio ('Fucks like a champion') - its just something she has chosen to write but it's shocking in that context, off-putting. In the same way when I read pronouns in a work email I feel I've been taken out of a work space I can exist in where sex doesn't matter except in very defined ways (maternity leave and accommodations to pregnant colleagues, a colleague having treatment for testicular cancer, and I work in healthcare so it's relevant in case histories) and I'm then in a space where my sex is so central that everyone is writing it in their emails. I mean, what the fuck? An email? The perfect, neutral, asexed form of communication, but that space is so unacceptably neutral and advantageous to women that sex has to force its way in? I have to remind my boss I'm female every single time I contact him even though he has surrounded himself with a male coterie in a highly female team? Why would anyone ask me to do that?

That's what I feel about pronouns, if anyone wants to know. Yes I know sex and gender are separate. And I still think that in real life it is practically quite difficult to separate them. Being asked at work to pretend that I do have a work gender but don't have a sex, even though only my sex has ever affected my life, is nasty and oppressive. Does anyone really think if I suddenly put 'they/them' in my emails that I will rapidly become part of my boss's favoured group? Because if so I submit that you're living a fantasy.

@DontLikeCrumpets that's a lovely poem (with a bit of a snigger for "sod"), thank you for sharing. I liked the edit too. It's noticeable how altering a few words changes the meaning from the mystical to the material.