Do pronouns feel alien to anyone else?

[janeseymour78]

By this, I mean I have friends who are 100% pro pronouns as a show of support and we've had our debates, and then there are others who say it is unhealthy to reinforce stereotypes, eg. By using them on work signatures

For me though, adding she/her pronouns to everything and even having being asked what they are verbally, she/her feels alien to me in a visceral way. I'm curious about this because I have several friends who don't share that feeling at all.

Im GC and I don't believe people are binary. I have elements of feminity and masculinity that whatever else that form who I am. I know I'm a woman, I have endometriosis so I'm painfully aware, as well as all the other reasons women are made aware of their sex.

It comes down to adding 'she/her' to everything would not feel right to me, as though it didn't reflect me. It would like I was falsely reinforcing my womanhood when I don't live my life that way or feel that way. Am I making sense? Do others feel this way?

The word "woman", however, is a label created by humans.

Yes, to describe one sex. Not two.

As defined by you.

We are under no obligation to use your definitions.

I'm arguing against your insistence on imposing unwanted labels according to sex

The insistence of people who don't accept the tenuous wrong body for brains theories of gender identity ideology to stick to identifying people by their sexed material reality? How very dare they!

We are under no obligation to use your definitions.

Likewise.

I fail to see why that matters. I'm not arguing against "sex existing", I'm arguing against your insistence on imposing unwanted labels according to sex, and striving to restrict other people's bodily autonomy

They are not unwanted labels. We want them very much. They are vital labels to enable women to name disadvantage and oppression we face on the base of our sex and for maintaining fairness, dignity and safeguarding rights for women and girls. Removing sex segregated spaces and replacing them with gender segregated spaces has, and will continue to, restrict women's bodily autonomy in the very fundamental way of women being raped and sexually assaulted. There's little greater loss of bodily autonomy than that.

That's a big leap. 😂How is me wanting one word to describe my own physical reality = me striving to restrict other people's bodily autonomy? You can do what you like but you can't force me to agree with you which is what YOU are trying to do.

We are under no obligation to use your definitions

They are definitions that have existed for all history for good reason.

Ok, if you think they are unwanted and unnecessary, then do the hard work of making your case by thinking through all the times those words are needed and come up with replacement words that convey the same meaning. Whether you want to accept it or not, women exist as a distinct group in society who experience the world differently due to their sex, and we need words to express who we are as this distinct group, otherwise we can't name ourselves or fight to improve things for ourselves. .

Yes, as I asked you before what term do you suggest for adult human female if not woman? Or are you proposing we should not be allowed a word at all?

Or, you could just respect other people's identities instead of being a spiteful asshole.

You certainly seem to be having problems respecting others! Maybe you could start practising what you preach?

@divingskies
> then do the hard work of making your case by thinking through all the times those words are needed and come up with replacement words that convey the same meaning

We did. The "cis" and "trans" prefixes convey one's "sex" perfectly well, providing more information than simply "male" and "female", since it accounts for the potential changes to physiology as a result of medical transition.

Ignoring trans people's trans status completely, treating a woman as a regular "male", is medically dangerous.

@Zerogravity
Why should I respect someone who insists on being a spiteful, disrespectful bigot?

The whole pronoun thing came as a result of nasty bigots who wanted to show how much of a bully they can be anonymously on social media by misgendering trans people.

Maybe realise that not everything is clear cut? For me it is bigoted and hypocritical to say that I have to accept the label cis - which is not relevant to me and doesn't work - while saying that we all have to refer to trans people in whatever way they decide. Double standards.

The only reason any of you have ever given for refusing is basically refusing to acknowledge trans people as equals.

I asked if you'd accept any term that means "person who isn't trans". You didn't answer.

Because you consider the mere act of acknowledging trans people's legitimacy to be a bridge too far.

Or, you could just respect other people's identities instead of being a spiteful asshole.

No matter what you want to call me, I don't share these beliefs. That's all there is to it. I know that people have them, but I think they are absurd, like I find certain other metaphysical beliefs. Why should I accept your metaphysical world view over my experience of reality? Why should I give it priority?

So, it is extremely clear cut.

You are hardly any different from a straight person who refuses the term "heterosexual" saying it means "defining the normal people around an abnormality".

That's how you're treating trans people.

The only reason any of you have ever given for refusing is basically refusing to acknowledge trans people as equals.

This is hyperbolic nonsense. They are equal as human beings. It's just not possible to be the sex that you are not, and sometimes it matters very much.

You seem.a bit confused. It's nothimg to do with equality. We just don't want you to appropriate our words - find your own. Women have been women for thousands of years. Maybe find your own word?

Why should I respect someone who insists on being a spiteful, disrespectful bigot?

Why should any woman (or man) respect someone who insults them while trying to force an ideological position on them that they simply reject? We don't need your respect, we're fine with our own self respect.

@Zerogravity
> We just don't want you to appropriate our words - find your own. Women have been women for thousands of years. Maybe find your own word?

And how is this different from the arguments against gay marriage?

They don't feel alien, I just think they are pointless and stupid and I won't join in with this nonsense.

Gay marriage doesn't affect anyone else, does it? If two gay men get married it doesn't mean that heterosexual couples aren't married any more.

Gender critical feminists mostly don't accept or believe in the existence of a sex based category that includes our sex and some people of the opposite sex who we have little in common with as a group and don't share most of the same political issues and needs. It's a nonsense.

I'm not sure why I italicised my own first paragraph there!

Likewise, trans women being women doesn't mean non-trans women aren't women anymore.

Why does "woman" need to be a "sex-based category"? Why do we need rigid, socially and legally enforced "sex categories"?

The labels themselves are not inherent to biology. Nor do they have to "mean" anything.