Do pronouns feel alien to anyone else?

[janeseymour78]

By this, I mean I have friends who are 100% pro pronouns as a show of support and we've had our debates, and then there are others who say it is unhealthy to reinforce stereotypes, eg. By using them on work signatures

For me though, adding she/her pronouns to everything and even having being asked what they are verbally, she/her feels alien to me in a visceral way. I'm curious about this because I have several friends who don't share that feeling at all.

Im GC and I don't believe people are binary. I have elements of feminity and masculinity that whatever else that form who I am. I know I'm a woman, I have endometriosis so I'm painfully aware, as well as all the other reasons women are made aware of their sex.

It comes down to adding 'she/her' to everything would not feel right to me, as though it didn't reflect me. It would like I was falsely reinforcing my womanhood when I don't live my life that way or feel that way. Am I making sense? Do others feel this way?

Because, obviously, women are the ones who get pregnant, bear children and the most likely to be raped. So we need to define in law what a woman is. We're also the sex with the historic record of oppression and disadvantage.

If you can't grasp that, you are either stupid or deliberately obtuse, and I can't do a lot to help you.

Trans men can get pregnant also, and I don't get why you can't respect their wishes to not refer to them as women.

and yet despite some transmen apparently suffering so badly from gender dysmorphia that they are triggered by the mere use of the word women and have ti have it erased from all the things, they’re fine to have babies literally the one thing that only women can do

right

no thank you

Because if we must have those categories, then the ability to choose gives people greater freedom, live their lives the way they wish to live.

I would 100% support giving women with endometriosis greater freedom, to live their lives the way they wish to live. Wouldn't it be wonderful if they could choose an identity that was free from pain.

You're under the false assumption that trans men share your view of pregnancy as "something only women can do".

Why not just use they/them and Mx as a standard for all? I wouldn't like it either personally, but who cares - it is much more arguable and defensible as a corporate policy than fannying about with individual preferences.

For the same reason we refer to people by names instead of "Employer #2562".

Sorry, Employee*

So what is it that transmen reject about being female? If it's not the physical difference to men what is it?

@Zerogravity
I'll just repeat the question I asked in another thread. Do you actually care for the answer, or are you just trying to pull a gotcha, and are going to argue against anything I tell you?

Is the use of pronouns mainly for those who don’t feel they look the way they should for the sex they identify? Is it to save the embarrassment of being misgendered?

Yes. I would like to know the answer! I've just posted a thread about a transman I know and I am trying to understand it. Afaik this person transitioned physically because of dysphoria of the female body - are you saying this is NOT the case?

In my professional role I'm sometimes referred to by my profession instead of my name. That's not an insult, it just recognises that my profession is the reason I'm involved in the case and it saves time, especiallyif there is more than one 'Permanent' involved. I'm always referred to as Ms, not Mrs or Miss, at work because it is to some extent accepted that marital status can be private information in the workplace. Now sex is also being argued to be private information, and there's certainly a legal and feminist argument for that, it's also the basis of the GRA. So therefore in public environments it does make sense to argue for a policy of desexing language where it refers to identifiable individuals. There is no argument for desexing language in relevant group contexts such as pregnancy or pay/employment/abuse statistics.

Instead we have the opposite situation- identifiable individuals must be able to have personal sexualised profiles in the workplace, while anonymised groups have relevant language removed from public information about their group. I find it absolutely insane.

OP - I get what you are saying. By using pronouns you are suggesting that you are fitting in to a series of stereotypes that you don't necessarily buy in to

Yes. I think I get what OP means. At work my sex is irrelevant in most contexts. Its almost certainly irrelevant in terms of the email recipient. If they don't need to know it, there is no need to draw attention to it.

it makes a political statement and a sex stereotype statement I don't want to make.

Physical dysphoria manifests differently for different people, and it does not have to apply to every aspect of one's body.

Not all trans people experience genital dysphoria for instance, and are content keeping genitals as they are.

So, a trans man seeking to have the physical characteristics associated with man, such as flat chest, body hair, won't necessarily feel uncomfortable with carrying a kid.

But that doesn't somehow "cancel out" the social dysphoria that comes with being referred to with feminine terms and labels like "woman".

An email? The perfect, neutral, asexed form of communication, but that space is so unacceptably neutral and advantageous to women that sex has to force its way in? I have to remind my boss I'm female every single time I contact him even though he has surrounded himself with a male coterie in a highly female team? Why would anyone ask me to do that?

This. 100% this.

You're the only ones who assume it makes any "sex stereotype statement" besides just using those pronouns.

There are times sex does matter though, in personnel policies for example relating to pregnancy and maternity rights, any policies relating to menopause etc. Also in cases, say disciplinary matters in sexual harassment, it helps to bring clarity if parties are referred to by their sex (these cases overwhelmingly likely to be male/ female), as well as helping to make clear patterns of sex based harassment.

You're the only ones who assume it makes any "sex stereotype statement" besides just using those pronouns.
Well it only makes sense if you believe in the existence of gender identity, doesn't it? And I still haven't seen a definition of gender identity that doesn't rely on sex stereotypes.

I think it is a massive load of shit and it also feels very, very wrong for me to do it, so I’m simply don’t.

You're the only ones who assume it makes any "sex stereotype statement" besides just using those pronouns

There's quite body of research on the assumptions people make based on someone's sex, so it certainly is not just me!

And as I find it hard to see how one's sex and gender can misalign without gender being based on sexist stereotypes, then stating pronouns is buying into an ideology based on sexist stereotypes, yes.

It's quite something to see the attempted process of evangelisation taking place on this very thread. "I'm not bothered about pushing my pronouns in everyone's face or loudly celebrating my womanhood from the rooftops" >>> ""Ooh, perhaps you are One Of Us... Please peruse my menu of transgender identities... Does this one fit? Here, try this one..."
This is what's happening to kids and teens all over the internet.

Gender identity ≠ stereotypes.

And you most definitely have seen such a definition, you've just ignored it. One ear in, other ear out.

Very rude aren't you. You seem unable to provide a definition but sure that I have seen one. 😂Enlighten me.

Woman – a social category and identity, typically associated with feminine names, labels and pronouns.

Which of these are a "stereotype"?