A transwoman feeding their new born baby with their own milk..

[Soubriquet]

A website has said they have lost many followers with supporting this.

I just don’t understand why this is being promoted. If men in general were able to breastfeed children, why is this not being encouraged among married couples? Im sure plenty of men would be willing to step up and share breastfeeding with their partner.

It can’t be healthy for a baby to be fed this way, as surely the transwoman would be taking multiple type of hormones in order to remain transitioned?

Link

Female breasts have certainly evolved to produce greater quantities of milk with less intervention than male breasts. But male breasts can and do produce milk.

Can they? I didn't think male breast tissue contained lobules?

"The male breast structure is nearly identical to the female breast, except that the male breast tissue lacks the specialized lobules, since there is no physiologic need for milk production by males.

Anatomically, the adult breast sits atop the pectoralis muscle (the "pec" chest muscle), which is atop the ribcage."

pathology.jhu.edu/breast/overview#:~:text=The%20male%20breast%20structure%20is,which%20is%20atop%20the%20ribcage.

I didn't think male breast tissue contained lobules?

You're right, they don't. Male mammary structures remain undeveloped, and only secrete as the result of illness, or as a side effect of drugs.
biologydictionary.net/mammary-glands/

I don't think you are comparing like with like here. The alternative to your breast milk was no breast milk at all, so clear benefit for the baby. The alternative to a trans woman's breast milk is the breast milk of the mother. Someone has birthed that baby! There is simply no benefit to the baby in that situation by adding an unquantifiable risk.

@hazelbeach surely that is also true for co-breastfeeding lesbian parents? In all 3 cases the parents presumably conclude breastfeeding is additive in terms of bonding/parental MH and well-being. That was the comparison I was making. Not a direct comparison with whether or not I should have fed - you are referring to an earlier post on that point.

But then less than 2% of women nourish their children exclusively with breastmilk until weaning them on to solids in this country.

That's an entirely different discussion about the lack of input into bf services and normalising bf.

We don't fund expensive drugs and input to support the males who want to to counter this issue.

Itsreally dangerous for women to argue things are biologically inevitable because natural.

It's really dangerous for women to argue that things are biologically possible because males can pump their body full of drugs to appropriate female biology.

It's also a twisting of the argument. The point of feminism, centring women, is that even with these biological abilities they can also achieve as highly as men with correct support.

I know of a women who extended bf both children (possibly tandem fed) while working her way up to being a consultant. Her husband took the career break to support her. She also had excellent peer support via social media platforms run by lactational consultants.

But it's still, NOTHING to do with any of those arguments.

I breastfed both my children for over a year, but I'm well aware that I was very lucky that it was easy for me. If it hadn't been, I'd have given them formula, which is what my mother did for both my sibling and me. Doesn't seem to have done either of us any harm. A much better alternative to the unresearched option of putting a male on a shedload of artificial hormones and other drugs and getting a newborn baby to suck on the male's nipple and ingest what comes out.

It's quite biologically difficult to feed if you have never had a child of your own.

Certain cells are laid down in the breast in the first 6 weeks of feeding. It's easier to re lactate after this than if you've never fed a baby.

It would be unusual for both mothers to be on maternity at the same time and for the same length of time; they may swap but I imagine after a significant period of time. Woman's bodies can take up to two years to fully recover.

Is it common for lesbian mothers who didn't carry the baby to be given lactation drugs? I suspect it's more likely that one mother still has milk from a previous baby and supplements to support the other.

You're not really supposed to supplement within the first 6 weeks unless you are pumping a little as this can reduce mother's longer term supply as detailed above.

@WarriorN this is good because we are getting much closer to where we disagree.

Your view is that if a man takes domperidone plus prolactin to stimulate milk production that is appropriating female biology.

Whilst if a woman takes the same drugs to stimulate milk production that is performing a biologically appropriate function because she is a woman, albeit not one who has just had a baby through pregnancy e.g. one who has become a parent through adoption or lesbian co-parenting.

Your ethical or political concern is with the male appropriation of female biology.

Whilst I do not see the same risks arising - or at least no one on this thread had told me what risks arise to women from this (they've told me to give me head a wobble, or I have an issue, or I'm fucking offensive etc but they have not answered this question.

So...

What risks to women arise from the male appropriation of female biology specifically in the context of breastfeeding?

A TW wouldn't be able to produce colostrum. I'm fairly certain that begins to be created in the weeks leading up to birth and again, tailored to baby's specific needs and the environment.

I have no words.

Other than - no, it won't feel the same for a TM. No matter how hard they try to believe it, they will not experience all the physical responses a woman would whilst feeding a child.

"Is it common for lesbian mothers who didn't carry the baby to be given lactation drugs?"

I have no idea. I assume it happens because hey are one of the groups the Newman-Goldberg protocol is used with. But I have no idea how many people do this.

But I think we can agree very few TW breastfeed too. Numbers aren't the issue here. If we were concerned about addressing social attitudes to breastfeeding in order to promote it this isn't where you would start - you are quite right about the 2% figure. If we wanted to change that, we'd need to see fewer people who find breastfeeding disgusting in an of itself not worry about people who are repulsed by co-parenting, adoptive mothers or grandmothers relactating, wetnursing, buying milk online, the 2 reported cases of TW lactating or any of the other things which probably only affect a few dozen babies a year anyway.

Why are people comparing TW breastfeeding to two lesbian parental sharing breastfeeding? Whether the latter is seen as 'natural' or not, at least the baby would be feeding from female breasts in that situation which are designed to produce milk for a human child. Not all women who share BF with the child's birth mother need drugs to initiate supply either. It can be done by regular intense nipple stimulation and regular use of a pump. If drugs are used, they are rarely long-term as once a supply is initiated, it doesn't always need to be maintained with the use of medication.

I have no first-hand experience of this BTW. It's just what I was told by several lactation consultants.

Sorry I was lazy with my quoting.

I don't think that a lesbian co-parenting relationship is a comparable situation. The non-birthing mother would need to protocol to induce lactation in the first place, but would surely then be able to feed without needing any medical assistance? She already naturally produces all the right hormones. Whereas a TW would continue to take hormones at the very least throughout the period of breastfeeding. The infant exposure isn't the same.

Those pictures were taken in a hospital. This newborn is hours old. This is a stage where newborns are learning to latch, have biological imperative to find the nipple and know only their mother. Left alone on her body, the newborn will move themselves on mums body to feed.

Each tiny feed take masses of energy. Vast amounts more than bottle feeding. Colostrum is unique and filled with energy. There is no way this man is producing colostrum. This 'milk' is not suitable.

Formula exists if the mother doesn't breast feed. Dribbles of drug laced milk (forget the domperidone, this man has said he hasn't stopped his cross sex synthetic hormones) are not a substitute. As a PP said, if mum wants to BF, his need for validation will likely ruin the baby's latch, her supply. She needs to feed often in this first 3 days to get her milk in. If she doesn't want to, his "milk" will not be suitable and they need to go straight to formula. There is no benefit to the infant in this situation. There just isn't.

We know mums are policed to within an inch of our lives during pregnancy and breastfeeding. Coffee, a wine, ibuprofen. The pain relief we need during and after birth. The drugs he is taking are not the same as the natural levels of natural birth hormones in a woman's body and I don't know how anyone can try to compare the two.

We know men often become abusive during pregnancy and breastfeeding when mum is most vulnerable. We know controlling, narcy men often try to control breastfeeding as a form of abuse. We absolutely know by their own admission that many men interested in cross gender identity have pregnancy, menstruation and lactation fetishes. That's not controversial, they are all over the place talking about it. He says himself he got a kick from it. Why is any sane woman (or man) defending this?

What risks to women arise from the male appropriation of female biology specifically in the context of breastfeeding?

A male or even female partner who is unaware of the valuable role a partner can play in holding, cuddling, burping, slinging, taking baby for walks and naps so that mum can physically recover and rest is displaying a narcissistic approach to their relationship and being a parent.

I would be concerned about the relationship as a whole.

childrenoftransitioners.org/2021/05/10/stop-using-us-as-props/

Stop Using Us As Props
Much more frequently, Children of Transitioners are appearing in the media as part of our father’s narrative. It’s uncomfortable to watch a younger version of yourself put through this, with their boundaries, privacy and dignity totally disregarded by our narcissistic dads. One day these children will look back at what their fathers put in the public domain, and it will further complicate their feelings around their father’s transition.

So are they taking prolactin? Is that even available synthetically? Surely if it were, it would be recommended for women who struggle to lactate?

Top post, @RinklyRomaine. I worry that the endgame here is to argue that breastfeeding is not a female activity and so employers and others wouldn't be guilty of sex discrimination against women if they did something that made it difficult for mothers to breastfeed, because a few males could be found who weren't disadvantaged. I have a feeling there was a case on these lines in the US already.

Squiff70 it's easier if you've had a child and bf already as the first 6 weeks of feeding physically changes the cells in the breast.

But you're right there's no point comparing apples and nuts.

Odd that someone who is such a passionate advocate for induced lactation can't even get the name of the protocol right ...

Or you also could respect other people's bodily autonomy and leave them alone, this affects you in no way shape or form. Or do you just have no life of your own ? Dear god, find a hobby.

We know men often become abusive during pregnancy and breastfeeding when mum is most vulnerable. We know controlling, narcy men often try to control breastfeeding as a form of abuse. We absolutely know by their own admission that many men interested in cross gender identity have pregnancy, menstruation and lactation fetishes. That's not controversial, they are all over the place talking about it. He says himself he got a kick from it. Why is any sane woman (or man) defending this?

Absolutely 👏

@RinklyRomaine 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

There's always someone who'll turn up and argue, endlessly, in long and complicated posts, to support this kind of stuff. And say things like 'you'll have to try harder than that to justify having your sex based rights' to women.

Not engaging. This is about using a child to provide a wanted emotional experience for a male solely because they have a chosen gender identity and see this act as a female thing that they are entitled to. It's not being offered to fathers and all other males raising children, it's not even offered as standard to women struggling to breastfeed naturally. And it places the best interests of the child way below the interests of the adult. Children are not props to meet the needs of their parents.

Boundaries. Healthy people have them.

A safeguarding training I was in once listed "preventing a mother from breastfeeding" under 'sexual abuse.'