A transwoman feeding their new born baby with their own milk..

[Soubriquet]

A website has said they have lost many followers with supporting this.

I just don’t understand why this is being promoted. If men in general were able to breastfeed children, why is this not being encouraged among married couples? Im sure plenty of men would be willing to step up and share breastfeeding with their partner.

It can’t be healthy for a baby to be fed this way, as surely the transwoman would be taking multiple type of hormones in order to remain transitioned?

Link

Thebeastofsleep

Thanks beast. I did think you would have to disclose medications and conditions, but was not sure.

Again I think you're spoiling for a fight to such a degree you're not bothering to read my posts.

What is unknown, and would what need to known before it could be recommended:

• in what quanties do synthetic hormones cross into breastmilk
• what potential impact would this have on offspring
• how does this compare to synthetic hormones such as contraceptives, for which we have a robust body of evidence for regarding safety
• how does the composition of milk produced in this way compare to milk produced by breastfeeding women
• based on the available evidence, is it possible for transwomen to safely contribute to the nutritional needs of their offspring

No it isn't. Breastfeeding is not a passive process.

Yes. That is the kind of research and evidence which should be happening before this protocol was put in place. I cannot find any evidence that any such research has been undertaken but transwomen are already using this protocol as well as self induced methods such as pumping.

The issue many of the posters on this thread are raising is why this research on the composition of the milk produced by inducing milk production in males was not done before introducing such a protocol.

The research you are suggesting is exactly what Helleofabore is suggesting.... * *

Much as with any substances taken by pregnant women or given to newborns, it's unethical to conduct any experiments.

So given that, and with the absence of any analysis of the substance that these male bodied people have produced from their nipples, it is safer for the babies not to give it to them.

I don't think its unethical to test the composition of breast milk though against the medication taken by the mother. I for one would have happily donated milk for such testing. The dispensing pharmacy was very concerned about me breastfeeding on the medication I was on, yet the milk bank were very happy to take my milk and feed it to infants (I do know they were using for food, not testing). I assume that the milk bank had researched it as thoroughly as possible before doing so.

So. That is a 'no' then? No, you don't have a recent analysis of the chemical composition with particular drug treatment interactions?

And you are telling us off for posters pointing out that no male should be feeding an infant an unknown substance from their breast? When there has been quite a bit of discussion and links posted about the composition of the substance?

Instead, you repeated a 'gotcha' from upthread and admonished posters for 'not replying'. oh. You are right. Upthread instead of saying:

Why do posters not realise they are posting on a site called Mumsnet? And that some of the posters on this thread HAVE breastfed, have also experienced having to make the decisions about contraception and many other substances, including wine?

I should have said:

"The interactions between female hormones and the breast milk fed to infants has been well researched and documented. I believe, as I have experienced, even having this discussion with several HCP's at the time I was breastfeeding over a decade and half ago. In fact, there is much research into the medications and, even food substances, a mother ingests and the impact on breastmilk and the infant. However, there seems to be no analysis easily found on any substance a male produces and the interactions of medications and food. In fact, considering the differences that have recently been discovered in just how different male and female bodies process medications and the various effects, (would you like links?), it would be negligent to assume that any hormone would be processed the same way in a male as it is in a female for the purposes of breastfeeding."

Maybe that would have been considered an answer, instead of me pointing out that that 'gotcha' is a pointless one.

Would that answer have been received better by either you or the other poster?

You both jumped on this thread and accused posters of transphobia and wondered why posters are not responding positively.

Oh yes absolutely I don't have any problem with testing breast milk @Thebeastofsleep!

My point was that any substance which hasn't come directly from a baby's mother shouldn't be given to a newborn unless it has been tested.

There has been no testing of this substance as far as I'm aware. And so on that basis, it should not be fed to a baby.

Again I think you're spoiling for a fight to such a degree you're not bothering to read my posts.

Probably due to the wording of your first post.

Yet another post telling posters they are transphobic and ill informed.

I am very happy to discuss the issue.

What is unknown, and would what need to known before it could be recommended:

-in what quanties do synthetic hormones cross into breastmilk
-what potential impact would this have on offspring
-how does this compare to synthetic hormones such as contraceptives, for which we have a robust body of evidence for regarding safety
-how does the composition of milk produced in this way compare to milk produced by breastfeeding women
-based on the available evidence, is it possible for transwomen to safely contribute to the nutritional needs of their offspring

Your list has been discussed all the way through this thread. A thread that you reduced to:

The two main arguments here

Claiming all transwoman are doing this as part of some kind of perverted act rather than because they want to breastfeed for the sake of breastfeeding.

By doing this, all transwomen are starving their children.

Incidentally, to repeat. The study that has been posted was of a transitioned male who exclusively breastfed their newborn for six weeks with no supplemental feeding mentioned.

It was pointed out at the time by an expert, who was themselves a transitioned male, that the maximum amount it seems that a male can produce is a lot less than the daily requirement of their child.

Yes I breastfed, but I hardly think if I hadn't been able to, or didn't/couldn't have children, it excludes me from the discussion Hmm

As other posters have pointed out, this is another non-reply. It makes no sense.

The point being, that if you have breastfed, you would have most likely or at least should have, either researched for yourself the interaction of artificial hormones on your breastmilk, OR you will have had advice from different health care professionals about this.

PLUS you would have read about the substances that you should avoid while breastfeeding.

To say 'well women take artificial hormones too' is not a gotcha particularly on Mumsnet.

As you say, knowing exactly what a male body does with those hormones and all the other medications and other substances their body processes, and what might cross to the males breasts, is absolutely the point of this thread.

But again, I didn't say 'well women take artificial hormones too' and some kind of "gotcha" or closing argument.

I'm pointing out that this is something that does happen, and therefore has been researched.

I asked the obvious question which is can this evidence of safety be translated to transwomen too? Are the doses of hormones comparable? etc

Again, an obvious attempt to ascribe to me things that I definitely didn't say.

In fact, let's add to your list from topics already discussed in the past 20 pages. Maybe it will stop the flow of posters telling us all we are transphobic in our discussion:

What is unknown, and would what need to known before it could be recommended:

-in what quantities do synthetic hormones cross into breastmilk

-what potential impact would this have on offspring

-how does this compare to synthetic hormones such as contraceptives, for which we have a robust body of evidence for regarding safety

-how does the composition of milk produced in this way compare to milk produced by breastfeeding women

-based on the available evidence, is it possible for transwomen to safely contribute to the nutritional needs of their offspring

others;

-does a male breast, the seems to lack the receptors that a female breast has that connects to other systems of the female body, have the ability to replicate in any way, the breastmilk needed for the different stages of development.

-the maximum quantity that these males can achieve.

-what effect will this then have on a breastfeeding mother and their milk supply and their own breastfeeding.

-how will males entering into breastfeeding clinics affect women and their interaction in these clinics.

-how will those males who are doing this for any other reason be assessed? Including those males who simply want to produce a substance from their breasts or any other reason.

-further research on whether the female breast does in fact interact with the infant's health to produce more protection against illnesses etc. Is it ever going to be possible that a male body will do the same?

-is this diverting support needed to be invested to encourage more mothers to breastfeed?

I have not gone back through the thread, but maybe we should keep this list going if it is helpful.

If I misinterpreted this statement, then I apologise.

I am not for this based on the current evidence, but for actual rational reasons, rather than transphobia.

There also seems to be absolute crickets in anyone responsing to the obvious point that many woman take synthetic hormones whilst breastfeeding and what do we know about this in terms of safety? If this child is "going to have breasts as a toddler" (just one claim made by a PP), why is this not a concern for women too?

The poster who posted this point pages before did use it as a gotcha.

And it was pointed out there it was an pointless gotcha and I have interpreted this as you accusing posters of not addressing it. Maybe you were referring to previous posts in the thread with that particular sentence, where as the rest of the post referring to previous posts and themes in the thread.

Either way, it had been brought up in the thread previously. Happy to discuss it again, but please don't accuse us of 'crickets' when it has been mentioned previously.

oops. copy and paste issue.

The poster who posted "the" point pages before did use it as a gotcha. Just to avoid confusion.

'Maybe you were(n't) referring to previous' obviously.

I very carefully considered taking "artificial hormones", if you mean oral contraceptives here, and was told by midwives that they would be safe for the baby, but the risk was that they would reduce my supply (that's the casual way of referring to the volume of milk your body makes).

In the end my considerations were for naught, as due to a rare condition where my body reacted to my own oestrogen levels in pregnancy, I have been advised for life not to take any external oestrogen containing medication. So oral contraceptives were right out.

None of this inspires me with confidence about the composition of a male transitioner's nipple discharge. Was it supposed to?

AlisonDonut

Don't the babies have to exert energy to feed and if this energy is wasted on non-nutritional milk, then in pure net energy costs it will cost them precious calories?

They do.

If I was a woman in a relationship with a male transitioner, and I needed to supplement, I would bottlefeed with formula, not the transitioner's discharge. I cannot tell you what I would say if anyone suggested that I should compromise the baby's calorific intake with a "less nutritious" feed that would cost calories to consume. Over the course of the first year, a baby born at a healthy weight should roughly triple that birthweight. Their job is growing.

Apparently purgatory, it is acceptable in some poster's eyes (pages back) that a male can just 'supplement' the infant's mothers milk because not every calorie counts .... or so I read it. This is what was posted:

if the child is being bf by the other parent as well (which is the impression I got from the screenshot on Twitter) I’m not sure how relevant the arguments about nutrition are;

I have been accused of misinterpretation several times lately.

Have I misinterpreted this statement?

Would a baby unit take milk donated by a Transwoman?

To be given to SCBU babies?
women were offered to donate , and many did.
presumably the hospital knew our health status and what we were taking ( or not taking, more importantly)

I don't know.

It's several years since I donated, but sex/ gender wasn't on the application form (I assume as no-one thought of this as a possibility).

You do have a blood test and declare all medications, but I don't know what their cut offs are. I am on hormonal medications (beyond just contraception) and they accepted me but I doubt on the scale of a trans person.

The nutritional make-up of the milk is not screened.

My interpretation was that the author was totally clueless about infant nutrition, but simultaneously driven by A) an unacknowledged and unexamined need to be seen as Tolerant, and B) an unconscious assumption that nothing that mere women had to say could really be driven by facts, logic, or high level of pre-existing knowledge about infant nutrition and how to foster the breastfeeding process. And therefore that women could safely be dismissed.

PurgatoryOfPotholes

That followed some of my analysis of the statement too.

I don't get how German soldiers growing breasts has relevance here? Is it just further proof that men can morph into literal females?! This bonkers subject never gets old.

This article has a bit about the Newman-Goldfarb Protocol which was originally intended for women who had not gestated to be able to breast feed.

thefederalist.com/2017/07/24/breastfeeding-hard-enough-people-real-breasts-focusing-men-makes-worse/