I was beaten to third place in a running race by a trans woman

[Athleticpotential]

It's a very low key local running race, neither of us are usually contenders, but a combination of circumstances meant the field was such that we finished 3rd and 4th.

The prize is a bottle of cheap wine, it's not about that.

I know her to chat to at races and I like her. It's not common knowledge that she's trans, she enters races as a woman. She is very masculine to look at, but TBH, until recently I thought she was an unfortunate woman, I had no idea.

So in the scheme of things it doesn't matter, but it does....?

Should I "do" anything? What?

[HistoricMoment]

@Athleticpotential

37/92

This says it all!

I would complain to the organisers and include this piece of information to prove your point.

It really does matter!!

[RufustheFloralmissingreindeer]

But takimg away fun things for people that mean nothing seems unnecessarily mean

meaning nothing is in the eye of the beholder

im sure there are fun things that you do that i think ‘don’t mean anything’ which i could take away from you

[Artichokeleaves]

It is infuriating when 'not looking transphobic' is in reality just females forced to pretend that a male person's privilege over them doesn't exist and also forced to pretend that they don't mind having to pretend under threat of punishment, because the male person's interests in all ways matter and the female people's don't.

[Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky]

No one is taking away their ability to run in a fun race, just that their sex is recorded correctly.

[Motorina]

But takimg away fun things for people that mean nothing seems unnecessarily mean

A third place finish would mean a great deal to me. I was beaten to fourth once by a woman who cut the course. Ten years in, it still rankles.

These things do matter.

[CatSpeakForDummies]

I think you can handle this in a way that is more tactful, than asking someone who passes a little bit to run with the men. That approach will not win you fans and will feed the idea that we can't always tell etc. for all the people who didn't realise.

Instead suggest that trans inclusion in these races could be parallel, so she gets 3rd place in her category (non men basically) but the third place woman should also get third place against women. They need to bring an extra bottle of wine, basically. They could call it third equal and just score everyone without counting it as a double place, so fourth woman is still fourth, not bumped to fifth following two thirds. Or she runs alongside women, but her time (with initial) is ranked with the men.

This way she is competing against women but they are not competing against her, so woman are not disadvantaged.

If you propose a reasonable solution like this, a refusal will force them to clearly state that woman are losing out. At least people will have to think about it.

[lightand]

The whole thing is ludicrous.

But the time to compain about such things was about 5 years ago or whatever.
Sorry, but until something "happened" to yourself, I presume you never spoke up or made a fuss or anything.

[Peregrina]

This all makes a mockery of women's sport. Think of all those East Germans a generation ago who were pumped full of drugs and set records. We now know it was wrong and those records weren't fairly set.

Why should a man be allowed to compete in a woman's race if he is taking drugs to reduce his testosterone? What's the difference really - it's still drug assisted.

As for this biological man, it clearly upsets you and that is good enough. How would you feel in another race against him/her? I somehow doubt if you would want to run again.

[EmbarrassingHadrosaurus]

But takimg away fun things for people that mean nothing seems unnecessarily mean

Being persuaded that all these individual items are too small, it looks unkind, or unnecessarily mean has added up over time and contributed to where we are today. Senior people with serious responsibilities can not describe a woman as an adult human female without fearing for their jobs and personal safety.

[willingtolearn]

Of course it matters. It's unfair. Fairness is important.

It matters in school sports, parkrun, charity runs - all of them.

Sports can be a real boost to people's self esteem and mental health and we are trying to keep girls and women in sports as they get older.

Anything that gets in the way of this is important.

OP - you came third, you know it and so do most other people.

I agree with contacting Fair play for women who may be able to help.

[Rainbowshit]

@Moancup

But it’s grass roots races that feed elite sports. It’s the kids/teenagers running in those who go on to compete for their county or club. If girls are disillusioned as 12, because they know they can’t win against that girl having male puberty, then they drop out and we lose elite womens sports.

I agree with this but a church fun run is the weedy verge of grassroots sports. It may be a first or occasional race. No one should get disillusioned coming fourth. Protect the areas of grassroots sports that actually feed the pipeline.

So women should just "be kind" and give up their places to males? #nothankyou

[ArnoldBee]

How come I don't hear about trans men competing?

[nettie434]

Like with this person, there's been speculation because of her appearance but no one officially "knows".

I am a bit confused here. Are you saying nobody knows this person's biological sex but assumes it is male or that she has disclosed she is trans to you but it is not generally known?

As it was a mixed race for charity, I don't suppose there are rules about testosterone levels but you could check. However, you would have to be prepared for controversy and for your relationship with other runners, and this person in particular, to be affected. My own view is that in races such as this, you could have easily been beaten by a younger woman. Would this have made you feel differently?

I personally feel that these sort of races are about inclusion and are not the same as competitions in which men and women compete separately.

[MichelleScarn]

But takimg away fun things for people that mean nothing seems unnecessarily mean

If it means 'nothing' and is just a fun thing, why don't they run in their sexed group and be happy with their 37/92 place?

[KermitlovesKeyLimePie]

Yet another Man cheating in one way or another.

This really Does matter OP.

You came 2nd not 3rd.

[MiniatureHotdog]

It does matter. The trans woman has cheated you out of your rightful place. Slippery slope.

This. Of course it matters. It's cheating plain and simple. Please raise it with the organisers. The more women stand up to this nonsense the more the tide will keep turning

[MiniatureHotdog]

And congratulations on coming 3rd 💐

[WouldBeGood]

@MichelleScarn

But takimg away fun things for people that mean nothing seems unnecessarily mean

If it means 'nothing' and is just a fun thing, why don't they run in their sexed group and be happy with their 37/92 place?

Yes to this.

And the difference in placing as in the two categories says it all.

Cheating, pure and simple.

[Athleticpotential]

@lightand

The whole thing is ludicrous.

But the time to compain about such things was about 5 years ago or whatever.
Sorry, but until something "happened" to yourself, I presume you never spoke up or made a fuss or anything.

I have supported women in elite sport the best way I can, I haven't done "nothing", but yes this is the first time it's been brought home to me that it matters in fun sport too and the first time, as someone directly involved, that I've felt that there could/should be some direct action I can take.

And yes maybe more should have been done years ago, but that surely doesn't mean we do nothing now?

[Peregrina]

How come I don't hear about trans men competing?

I know you don't need an answer but let's spell it out. A transman has gone through a woman's puberty. If she took testosterone to anything like approaching a male level it would be doping and she would be thrown out. As indeed men in men's sports get thrown out so that's not discrimination.

As for the 'be kind' nonsense, the OP was prepared to accept the person. It was a choice for him/her to overtake, s/he could have thrown the race for third place, and integrity would have been satisfied.

[Athleticpotential]

It doesn't matter like an Olympic medal matters, but it absolutely does matter to the people involved . We've worked pretty hard to be slightly better than average

[puffyisgood]

in general I suppose I do tend to think that the trans exclusionary argument is weaker in the case of very low level recreational sport, where no livelihoods, college scholarships, serious accolades, etc are at stake. it does at first glance seem plausible that the needle of the fairness-inclusiveness swingometer might nudge a couple of degrees in the latter direction at this kind of level.

on the other hand, at this kind of level there's no scope whatsoever for the kind of T levels testing which most of the trans lobby appear to accept as a necessary part of fair competition involving trans women.

at the end of the day what matters is the feelings of the female participants of the race. any of them would be well within their rights to complain.

[Peregrina]

I assume in fun run type events no one does the checks that they would for more elite levels of sport. But they rely on fairness and honesty, and a transwoman knows that he has gone through male puberty. Someone keen enough to run regularly will know that's an advantage. A 50 year old overweight male couch potato probably would come last in any race, but wouldn't be entering in the first place.

[Limer]

Well unless you know her well enough to ask her testosterone levels I'm going to say you can't do anything.

A man with artificially reduced testosterone levels isn't a woman. He has been through male puberty, and therefore has a male body, male skeleton and male muscle mass.

[DameHelena]

My own view is that in races such as this, you could have easily been beaten by a younger woman. Would this have made you feel differently?
The key word here is 'woman'.
Being a woman and being beaten by another woman is materially different from being a woman and being beaten by a man.