I was beaten to third place in a running race by a trans woman

[Athleticpotential]

It's a very low key local running race, neither of us are usually contenders, but a combination of circumstances meant the field was such that we finished 3rd and 4th.

The prize is a bottle of cheap wine, it's not about that.

I know her to chat to at races and I like her. It's not common knowledge that she's trans, she enters races as a woman. She is very masculine to look at, but TBH, until recently I thought she was an unfortunate woman, I had no idea.

So in the scheme of things it doesn't matter, but it does....?

Should I "do" anything? What?

In what way are trans women women though? (Sorry to derail but when people say this it’s always interesting to know what they actually mean!)

So it's only trans people/TRA's that are able to dictate what is acceptable language?

If women say to you they find it offensive would you stop using it?

It does matter. I don't know what I would do in your place though. It's tricky.

I run in a local running group and do local 10k races.

In the running group, the relatively unfit, low effort blokes run at about the same speed as the women who are putting in quite a bit of effort. If these men had the same level of fitness as the women in the group they would be significantly faster.

When we do 10k races, I and the other runners from my group are nowhere near the elite. Around the 50th "centile" of speeds for all entrants. But the race results portal lets you see your result from just among your own sex and age class - and for me, with my category I am 40th centile ie 40% of entrants in that category run faster than me and 60% run slower, and I feel proud of that. The unfit bloke who runs at the same speed as me, in his sex and age category, goes in the other direction - significantly below average speed. There's no prizes to be won in the mediocre range where we are but the idea that unfit bloke could pretend his minimal effort was basically a way better outcome just by self-IDing as a woman is insulting to the efforts of the women who train hard to get to that level. it is relevant and important to know how your speed ranking compares to others in the same category, and that is biological sex, not a feeling in the head. If the category was gender I don't even know what I would put because I certainly don't "identify" as female. I happen to have a female body, which I spent most of my life hating. Getting into running is helping with that a bit.

I don't think transwomen are men pretending to be women. Its more that they are males who see women in a particular way, see us a social role, or a 'look', as a group that they wish to emulate and be included as part of for a variety of personal reasons.

Anyway, what I am sure about is that transwomen are not female. And we compete in sport with our sexed bodies, not our stereotypical social role or presentation.

So why on earth transwomen think competing in female sport is acceptable I can only ascribe to male privilege and entitlement.

Two fair options for the runner concerned.

1. Enter the men’s category. In this case it would only be the organisers that know this, assuming that the results are not published.

1. Enter the womens category and note they are “ assisted “.

Of course neither option would result in a prize or high place. But I’m sure they wouldn’t mind that at all as many many posters here have pointed out that this “ poor woman “ is just running to have fun and not do anyone out of a place.

well whilst I’m all for idea that gender is a social construct (it is), we live in a gendered society, and so women are people who identify as women.whatever that means for them, at the end of the day gender is complicated and not a tangible thing.

and so women are people who identify as women.whatever that means for them, at the end of the day gender is complicated and not a tangible thing.

Yesssss.... Goood.... Just let the misogyny flow through you!

Yes, sorry UKA. I think of them as one and the same but of course they're not.

I "know" because someone she told broke the confidence.

Yea well done, trans women are trans women

they are not women

women are people who identify as women.

You must see that this isn't a definition. What is the thing that they are identifying as - female people?
Feminine people?

The only thing female people have in common is their biology. Not their character, skills, cultural femininity, behaviour, etc.

What is the thing that you claim women have in common - the thing that makes them women?

in what way is that misogynistic?

of course it matters, it wasn't fair. Im very sorry for you. Follow Sharon Davies on Twitter and tell her about it. She's a very good advocate for fair play in sports for women.

Also, what message does it send to younger girls? Might as well give up now as if there's a transgender women involved, they already have an advantage?

whatever that means for them, at the end of the day gender is complicated and not a tangible thing

no, it isn’t.

sex is binary. You’re male or female. And don’t start with DSD, they are still male or female.

gender is a collection of stereotypes. To decide whether a person is cis or trans they choose which set of societally imposed stereotypes they prefer.

the mere existence of “cis” and “trans” also reinforces the binary. You can’t be trans if there is no “opposite” to align with.

Unfortunate woman is a great username. And you should complain. Testing boundaries is how women get stamped on.

Do you think you can answer some of the questions asked of you?

or … are you only interested in denigrating posters for not agreeing with you and instead believe the science and the evidence?

Because currently, all readers are seeing from you is telling people off. It does not have the effect you think it will for the thousands of posters who are reading or will read this thread.

Who? Who has said that?

Name them. Or stop building straw men.

women are women, never cis women

we don’t need any other descriptions than woman. We’re female.

trans women are trans women. They’re not women because they are born male. They can never be female.

it’s only complicated because men want to make it so complicated that yet again women lose the rights they fought for, the safety of single sex spaces, sports that we’ve fought to compete in on a level playing field.

cis is a manufactured term being used against women predominately.

men do not decide what women are called.

^cis isn’t offensive, and it’s useful when having a discussion about trans women (because yes I believe trans women ARE women, so I will refer to them as such so how else would you like me to distinguish for the purpose of discussion)
no one actually thinks it’s offensive it’s a pretence to infer that trans women aren’t women.^

You can believe that black is white or the earth this flat , or that the sun goes round the earth. But it doesn't make it so. Transwomen are biological men, of the male sex.

Others on this site clearly take issue with everything trans people do, insist on calling them “men pretending to be women” etc

and those posts get deleted pretty quickly. So, I would suggest you deal with your own prejudices here about posters on MN and I request formally that you cease using ‘cis’.

We are discussing sports which is categorized by sex and not gender. Therefore your ‘cis’ is offensive and irrelevant.

Maybe though, you’d like to actually present some evidence why you believe that males should be able to compete in any female category.

@Ntsure why do you think any male should be able to compete in the female category after they have experienced any male puberty?

Referring to non trans women as “proper women” infers that trans women are what, improper women? Not women at all?
calling cis women, cis, isn’t anything other than a description there’s nothing derogatory or negative about it

@Ntsure
Well people used to claim that the word N*gger wasn’t derogatory. They said it was just a factual description of black people / people of African American heritage.

Lots of other people disagreed.

Same with P*ki referring to people from Pakistan. “ Nothing negative “ people like you said.

Words matter. You don’t get to redefine half the human race to suit your own political agenda.

I find it offensive. QED, it's offensive.

whatever that means for them, at the end of the day gender is complicated and not a tangible thing

yes, gender is bullshit. Sex, however, is simple, and definitely tangible.

@Ntsure when you ignore the question I asked you, why not at least try to think in your head what you genuinely believe the answer to be, even if you don't want to share it on here?

Either you believe women have a shared set of characteristics other than their bodies - if so, what are they? - or you believe a woman can be any kind of female-bodied person.

I'm sure somewhere out there is a woman who is the polar opposite from me in terms of race, looks, abilities, taste in music, physical skill, life experiences, sexual orientation, political views, belief... we would still share the common factor of having a female body. That's all. Nothing more and nothing less, but that's what the word "woman" describes.

Mostly someone's sex is utterly unimportant. Sometimes, it's very important. That's when we need a word to accurately name it.