Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou - you keep complaining that you’re not being shown “the same respect” on this thread, but you’re the one repeatedly calling others’ posts “offensive” - and no-one is doing that to you? Sounds pretty hypocritical to me to complain that people aren’t being respectful to others’ views, then go about calling other posters offensive or “truly offensive”.

Can you pinpoint exactly what you thought was offensive or ignorant about @Whatsnewpussyhat ’s post, for example? It’s factual and I struggle to see the “offence”. Sounds all pretty controversial to me. Religion is a belief system. Gender ideology / belief in gender identity as an innate soul is also, clearly, a belief system - there is zero scientific evidence for the gendered soul just as there isn’t either for the religious soul. What’s so offensive about saying so? It’s only offensive if you believe in the belief system, surely, which is the entire point?

Or are you disagreeing with the idea that it’s absurd to tell children they can change into the other sex? Well, what’s ignorant or offensive about that? It’s simply fact. They can’t. Do you believe they can?

*uncontroversial! Still struggling to post on this glitchy new platform!

I couldn't be called offensive, because I'm not.

I enjoy all your posts @nightwakingmoon .

It is Wandas post on autism, an attempt to claim autism is the root cause of all transgender and worse stil, claiming the school spends more time on Transgender than it does autism awareness. That is a dreadful thing to say.

No I don't believe children can change into the opposite sex. But I don't believe they are motivated purely by autism, mental illness or the MN favourite, misogyny.

Why is it dreadful if it’s factual? And what’s so offensive about saying so anyway? Come to think of it, what’s offensive about all the other posts you’ve deemed offensive? You seem to be the one calling names here, not anyone else. Seems like you’re calling for a respectful debate, but not according others much respect. I personally disagree regularly with many other posters’ different views, but they are legitimate viewpoints and I manage not to go around calling them offensive.

I've used the word offensive twice. Both in relation to references to autism. I work in and around autism, so I'm maybe over sensitive in that regard.

Just because something has basis in fact doesn't mean that it can't cause hurt or offence.

You can have a debate about this without referring to autism. Indeed, a poster up thread was the one who raised the problem with this, yet you seem to have chosen to ignore their post.

Do you accept then, that we shouldn't be telling children that they can change sex? And if its not autism, mental illness or misogyny, and they're not actually changing sex, what in your view is driving the epidemic of young people saying they are trans? What even IS trans in that case?

I don't get the obsession with the changing sex thing. We see it every day on MN. It's obvious they haven't set foot in a school.

I see real human beings in front of me.

Trans to me is someone feeling that they identify as a sex other than their born sex. it doesn't mean they can CHANGE sex, it means they can identify as (whether you agree with that concept or not).

For me, the epidemic comes with acceptance. The world of school children and the world of online forums are two different places. I find it staggering that people claim to act in the interest of "all women", etc etc, while fundamentally disallowing youngsters (the kids themselces and their peers) to have their own views. This thread represents that. Why does OP (with her 'sensing') need to educate her child about this other child? Why?

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou
What is offensive exactly?

I've stated it as it is - there isn't autism awareness week at the school, there aren't autism assemblies, there aren't special classes on autism or focusing on autistic writers and artists.
My own autistic children have complained to me about this.

Yet there are constant TQ awareness events at the school.
I'm not including the LGB because the last piece of training they had said that lesbians and gays were same gender attracted.

If you are offended by a woman who is autistic and who also has autistic children saying there isn't enough autism awareness in comparison to the disproportionate obsession with TQ in her own children's school - you've got issues that I really can't help you with.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

You are sensitive because you work with people who are autistic?

I'm going to need a microscope to locate my violin.

Lesbians and gays are same gender attracted. I don;t understand your point.

I get what your children are saying, but....I dont understand why there would be autism assemblies or special classes on autism, or focus on authors (why would there be?)

Children are really accepting. And many autistic children (in my own experience would HATE this). It's all subjective, surelY?

Please don't imply I have issues

I'm not bloody offended by you asking for autism awareness. How dare you.

I'm offended by you suggesting it's the causal link for trans.

Behave yourself.

I'm over sensitive to people suggesting a causal link because I don't like autistic children being used as whataboutery. It's OK for you to talk about your autistic children, but not me to talk about the ones I work with?

"my autism is better than your autism" is at play here, and utterly irrelevant. I suggest we don't interact further.

"It is Wandas post on autism, an attempt to claim autism is the root cause of all transgender and worse stil, claiming the school spends more time on Transgender than it does autism awareness. That is a dreadful thing to say."

Where do I say that?

Wanda, your last post about a tiny violin was over the line. These are real children.

I have enjoyed night's posts and would like to remain reading them to help educate me but I would like to not further interact, thanks. In any case, as pointed out by PP, your views on autism are wholly irrelevant to the OP.

As in where do I say "Autism is the cause of all transgender?"

You have an idea of autism from working with people with autism.
You have no idea what it is actually like to be autistic. Much like men don't know what it's like to be women.

However you are quite happy assuming authority.

There is a term they coined called autigender . The liberal young people are aware that autistic traits can be gender issues.

No authority. My own experiences, which I'm entitled to share, as we all are. I don't think you're wrong, I just personally found it offensice. If I offended you, even if I thought myself right, I would hope you would tell me so we could discuss it.

I never claimed to know what it's like to be autistic.

I claimed to care about the autistic people in my care, and be sensitive to comments regarding autism and trans gender. I'm OK with that.

Other way round.
Gender issues can be caused by autism.

Autistic traits are not caused by gender issues.

It's a ridiculous term, at best.

These are real children who are being told they can change sex.

These are real children who are being told they should take puberty blockers.

Real children who are watching Tik Tok influencers talking about breast binding and mastectomies on perfect healthy body parts.

Real children.

For an ideology.

Well, I could be offended by you saying that lesbians are same gender attracted, because it’s same SEX attracted.

I’m not attracted to a woman’s “gender identity” (how could that be possible? Even if I believed such a thing existed, you don’t fancy someone’s gender identity from across a crowded room, do you? How can I tell from half a nightclub away if a woman feels like she “identifies” as liking pink and knitting, or identifies as a fish or a small bunny or a teenage boy or a mascwhatever or anything else?)

However, I rarely get offended by anything, which is very good for general life; so I’m not going to make a big deal about the sex/gender thing or anything like that, except to note that you said upthread that we should be all listening to others’ experiences and stuff, and as a lesbian I can tell you that I am definitely not same “gender” attracted. 😀

Yeah, I get all of that.

But they are also real children sat in front of me, who I picture when I read some of the things on this thread.

Mastectomies are staggeringly, staggeringly rare.

I am around trans children every day. Every day.

Despite your disdain for me, if I saw posts speaking about autism in a way I found offensive, I'd be the same.

Your little violin aside, working with real people affects you. I'm only a human being.

Of course you can be attracted to a gender! thoughts, feelings, the way they express themselves.

This wont shock you, but my thoughts on sexuality are pretty grey too.

Offensive was the wrong word. As I said to Wanda, I'm over sensitive when it comes to my pupils. I know that. but hey, human right?

"Mastectomies are staggeringly, staggeringly rare.

I am around trans children every day. Every day."

That's a lot of trans children. How many are going to have surgery?

Well, I work in the same school, so it isn't necessarily a lot of kids.

Currently? Zero.

Can I ask you a question, Wanda? i was harsh on you about the comment earlier, it hit a nerve, but I could have been kinder.

If your child, or a child you knew, was transgender, how would you address this? (please ignore the autism aspect).

FWIW (and I mean this) I think parents of autistic children do a wonderful job. It's not easy. And (imagine, me as the male champion!) think autistic women face more barriers than autistic men. I really do admire you at that level.

We can disagree on topics though, we're human.

I don't agree with any of these btw - the first 3. I don't think these things should happen.

I just don't think its black and white. The autism references hurt me. I guess thats my own....barriers?

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou
i think that’s deliberately obtuse- no one thinks that autism is the sole reason for why a child might identify as trans. Just that it appears to be a factor in about 30% of cases that GIDS see ( for girls at least, I think). The underlying reasons for each child are individual to that child.
It’s also not offensive for parents of autistic children etc. to feel that a lot of energy in schools is devoted to lgbtq+ issues when neurodiversities are not given a proportional amount of attention. I’m sure others might feel similarly for other issues also.
Those who are neurodiverse could really benefit being in an environment which took into account difficulties they might have for example. The same can be said for appreciating strengths in various areas. People on this thread have children with autism and have autism themselves, no one is trying to be rude about autistic people as far as I can see?