Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

I'd love to hear your explanation of doctors creating another medical disaster or teachers abusing positions, but would you like to pretend children don't die under the care of parents?

The first doesn't exclude the latter.
As for the examples of doctors and teachers causing harm, I would suggest Google.
I'll start you off
Lobotomy............

Sorry omitted quote

Yes @Helleofabore - that's the one we're discussing.

So, Stopwaiting, you absolutely stand by your contradictions and convictions? Correct? It just seems a very muddled position to be in. I would truly feel for you if you thought one thing but were for Ed to represent the other at your workplace, that would be difficult and energy sapping. Bit like us females being forced to call a male "Miss" and fit "her" for a bra. But my understanding is that you're not in that position. You know the truth, you're just putting that aside to focus on feelings because, why? Because it's easier for you? You call the kid by their chosen names and pronouns because questioning them is not your job, but you DO actually believe them, despite not believing them. I'm confused. You don't owe me an explanation of course, but you've said an awful lot over the past 30+ pages, and I've read it all, and I STILL don't understand what the heck you're talking about. It's gobbledegook.

Forced, not for Ed!!!

I STILL don't understand what the heck you're talking about.

I have ceased to try to work it out by asking questions. Questions that never got answered. As I said earlier, I think this poster ceased to engage many pages ago.

Still, on the bright side… 70 posts left. Hopefully though, OP worked out a good way to explain the issue and might come back and tell us.

As far as I can tell women are wrong for prioritising females and should care more about males' feelings. Plus ca change, it's not exactly a brand new argument.

Even better, according to some people on social media, should prioritise those male feelings above our daughters.

And those social media commentators seem to believe parents most definitely should not work towards ensuring that any female students have their needs fully met while asking for male students who need special provisions to have their needs met too. Just not above the female students.

And around in circles we go. Same old, same old.

Any other dysphoria is treated as a mental illness why isn’t gender dysphoria.

I think the some people like the idea of living like someone of the opposite sex or truly believe in themselves that they are the opposite sex but base their beliefs on stereotypes which are at odds to real life and lived experience.

Children get it. The number of trans students is on the rise. The kids are fine with it. It's the parents who struggle. Please be acutely aware that any judgements, however much you try to water them down, will be very obvious

No one can know if pupils are fine or “get it” As a child they will “get” that they shouldn’t say anything to the contrary as they will be punished for their opinions. Saying nothing or saying you are in agreement because it is expected doesn’t mean anything if there is an air of oppression.
Why should anyone water down their opinions. What is wrong with your children knowing what you believe?

The number of trans students is on the rise. The kids are fine with it. It's the parents who struggle.

Yes. Strangely adults who can see the ramifications of where decisions such as social transitioning can lead, and has led if we listen to the histories of the detransitioners in their own words.

Children do not see these ramifications. It is why children should not have the pressure of making major decisions that may significantly impact their future.

There is much discussion around the degree this impacts their future, and sadly some people are very much going along with this for whatever reason they may have. However, when you have Dr Hilary Cass joining many other clinicians raising the alarm that even social transitioning is not without its harms, that social transitioning is not a neutral act, it seems like those adults who are going along with this need to reconcile that perhaps they are causing harm to these young people.

@nightwakingmoon your posts on 28 April exactly.

I read history and English lit in the mid to late 80s at a fashionable RG university.

Post modernism has so much to answer for.

The irony is my dearest friend is a trans woman who had surgery in the early 90s in her early 50s. She has absolutely no truck with any of this.

Right, but the original point was that doctors and teachers cauxs harm but parents always know better. Which is horse shit.

Well, if you think that one opinion trumps the other. Constantly saying we are causing harm just makes it an end argument so you can e right, because apart from a few idiots on here thinking otherwise, I obviously dont want to cauxs harm.

I don’t think anyone is claiming parents always know better. That would be a ludicrous claim to make. However, generally speaking, it is recognised that parents are the people best placed to guide their child into young adulthood and this is recognised in statute and various conventions, e.g

”“Convinced that the family, as the fundamental group of society and the natural environment for the growth and wellbeing of all its members and particularly children, should be afforded the necessary protection and assistance so that it can fully assume its responsibilities within the community ....(5) State parties shall respect the responsibilities, rights and duties of parents ... to provide in a manner consistent with the evolving capacity of the child appropriate direction and guidance in the exercise by the child of the rights recognised in the present Convention ... and (18) Parents ... have the primary responsibility for the upbringing and development of their child: the best interests of the child will be their basic concern.”: Preamble and Articles 5 and 18(1) of the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child (CRC)”

ScotGov of course being particularly keen (in theory) to incorporate the UNCRC in law…

With you yes for several reasons.

I refer tou to the PP who called me a narcissist because I said that in some cases school staff are in a better position to know the child than the parents (this was off the back of tbe discussion about how a young boy laughed at his teachers' description of him). That can happen, my brother was misrepresented by the school for various reasons.

However, not many days go by when neither I or a colleague receive communication from a parent in relation to a pupil telling them about an incident in terms that is absolutely hee haw like what happened .

The convention is all well ans good but there are many many parents who are not in the best position to do this.

My point is we should all work together. Calling us dangerous and brainwashed and a harm to children for ud doing our job doesnt really help.

It's going to take a while for many schools to readjust and recognise the harm being done to children by this. Busy schools, often run by teachers with a curriculum background and limited safeguarding experience are easy pickings for the activists - be they from lobby groups or young teachers / support staff / union activists, often with limited life experience, limited professional skills / understanding, not parents and leaving university coerced into the thought limiting cliches like TWAW etc.
Cass is incredibly important already for what she's exposing. As Helleofabore points out, psychologists are now speaking out, detransitioner's voices are being heard and most importantly parents are challenging schools for 1. trying to remove parental rights with no legal authority and 2. challenging the "professional arrogance" of socially transitioning children in isolation - which the government has now clearly said must stop.

But I do believe in trans so....

But since you asked the question, in scotland we are duty bound by the gtcs not to discuss our beliefs. Read thr standards if you dont believe me. I'm not supposed to say who I vote for, or if I agree with religion.

Also, your point about children being somehow terrified into not daying anything because they will be punished is not indicative of the behaviour I see. I find it difficult to comprehend how so many posters believe that they must be mentally Iill, uninformed, or brainwashed rather than that they just have their own opinion.

Absolutely rogdmum The Children Act 1989 on which our safeguarding / child welfare legislation is based on enshrines the importance of keeping a child within their family wherever possible.
The data about looked after children shows how catastrophic the outcomes are for those not brought up in their families. Of course, some children need to be removed for their own safety but it's why social services err on the side of keeping a child with their parents where possible and working to support those families - the state makes a poor substitute.

challenging the "professional arrogance" of socially transitioning children in isolation

Hahahahahahahaha MrsOW That’s exactly how I describe my daughter’s school staff. I say they are “operating in a bubble of professional arrogance”

Schools constantly reiterate how parents/family are a child's first teachers and the most important people in their life. I find this slightly odd, tbh, as I always had thought that went without saying. It always seemed to me that they were protesting a bit too much. I suppose it's speaking to the tension between family and state, which of course is politicised.

I've never heard that, but nearly every training in the last three years has referenced us a corporate parent.

I know I was guilty of that at times rogdmum - although it was more likely to be seen in cases where as a younger teacher I thought getting reluctant kids to school was a matter of saying "get your uniform on and get into the car"
Becoming a parent was very humbling. As was moving into a pastoral role where often parents and the school were equally stumped about how to deal with some mad escapade that teenagers got themselves into.

Maybe it's just the iPhone app, but posts that start with a quote are being cropped off in the middle of sentences. It makes it very hard to follow what some people are saying. Apparently it's been reported via Site Stuff, but no fix as yet.