Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

If I took my teens teacher’s view and awareness of their situation and their ‘actions’, it would be remarkably different to the reality.

I once attended a school where the teachers lived nearby and we knew them personally. That's extraordinary rare though, as many headteachers advise staff to live out of catchment.

No. Not quite. I do genuinely have my views

But you're the first poster to acknowledge that it's a difficult position for us rather than the many who have decided I'm a danger to children

No.

I dont have to answer anyone questions who asks me how many sexual assaults I will allow.

Ironically, you implied I would be fine with those things taking place

I only ever said LM didnt have a great time at school because she was called her dead name, not allowed to change her uniform (I see you snipped those bits out) and not able to use the toilet.

I never said that wasnt Ok, I said it wouldnt have been a barrel of laughs because it wouldnt!because I have empathy.

Your faux naivety on pretending you thought I meant she should have been allowed anywhere despite several posts where I confirmed otherwise is not fooling me. Nor is your attempt at implying I allow sexual assaults to happen (there is no way you meant anything else, because its such a stupid fucking question to ask).

If you're going to make bold claims about me, at least own it.

@TeamSukhareva will you be apologising for calling me a man?

Equally, school staff can sometimes have a better understanding than their parents

In reading many MN posts over the years, this is the one that takes my breathe away in its narcissistic belief. I am so tired of insecure and self referential teachers who believe they have a better understanding than a parent does.

Narcissistic? I think you need to look it up.

I don't think I personally have a better understanding than parents in their own stories on here, no, before the pile on.

But I have been in situations where the school is aware of something the parent isn't. If you think that doesn't happen, you are deluded.

(and equally, parents know things we don't). Hence why communication is important!

Take it away from this topic for a moment.
There was a story a few years ago about a teenager having an abortion behind her parents' back. She didnt tell her parents, she told her teacher and her GP, and neither could tell the parents.

For what its worth, I don't agree with that at all.

But through your dislike of my views, if you want to pretend that there is no children in the history of ever who has a better relationship with a member of staff than their parents, for whatever reason, you are dreaming.

Do I need to link you to the many, many cases where parents have let their children down?

We have a multi agency society for a reason.

Do I need to link you to the many, many cases where parents have let their children down?

Only if I can list all the times teachers ' abused their positions and doctors created yet another medical disaster.

I am going to be snippy again, on the ground you keep posting emotional rants. Seeing you think my posts are fucking stupid or whatever, I don't much care about being snippy.

You are careering wildly between admitting that I asked you questions and saying I make "bold claims". Note that. And no, asking you questions is not implying anything. If I wanted to imply something, I would do a better job of it than that.

You do not have to answer questions, but it is absolutely bizarre to type so much while engaged in not answering them. Especially as on other pages of this thread you make a performance of claiming other people's posts are too long to read.

Perhaps when you ask questions, you do it in order to imply. I'm noting down this for future reference, in case other people also do, and I've just never noticed. Nevertheless, it is not a universal human trait, and some of us ask questions because we want to know the answer.

You're overusing the word "imply" entirely, to be honest. What people are doing in this thread is inferring your views from your posts, and some of them are principled enough to ask for clarification before categorising you on the basis of one post on MN.

It currently seems as if you'd rather I (and an unknown number of lurkers who might also have found the reference to LM jarring) had decided to condemn you without telling you, and without ever giving you a chance to clarify.

On a tangent, if you are actually engaged in the education sector, I suggest you tamp down this tendency to engage in projection, because there is the clear and ever present possibility you may encounter children in your career who are neurodivergent. Worst of all, you may meet children who are neurodivergent and whose parents will be on their side in the face of accusations from school staff. Something to think about, hmm?

Oh, and there is a great deal of difference between being a pupil at school who is not allowed to use the toilet, and being a pupil at school who is not allowed to use the toilets of the opposite sex. The first's human rights are being breached. The second has access to toilets, as is their human right, and simply doesn't have more choices of toilet than other pupils of their sex.

I don't think male pupils should be allowed to use toilets intended for the sole use of the opposite sex. They should use those for their sex, or the school should install additional single occupancy unisex toilets.

Where to start.

Thanks for the misogynistic view that I have "emotional rants".
I didnt call your post fucking stupid, i called the question of how many sexual assaults I would allow "fucking stupid", given your post regarding my professional status, I took that personally, imagine
It;s a bold claim to ask me about sexual assaults and try and preend i would allow it.
I didnt say it was too long to read, I just read the patronising tone and patched it.
"an unknown number of lurkers" ie you, and you alone. as I'm saying now for about the 6th time, a PP tried to imply that LM has "special treatment " as a trans woman. What i pointed out was that she will have had a shit time at school, so that doesn't really cancel it out. On these threads, posters tell us about bad times they had at school and the sympathy is out. Why not for Lily? Can you really not understand that those experiences will have been hard for her? i see youve again chosen to ignore the dead name issue and focus back to the toilets, wihich is a silly move, because as I've said several times now , I DON'T AGREE WITH MIXED TOILETS.
Thanks for the "if" you work in education, an implication that you dont think I do.

The irony is I work very closely with neurodivergence (although there;s a reason MN clamps down on posters who connect trans with autism).

The silly thing is we agree on the toilet issue, you've just chosen to take me on because you think its two camps. It isn't.

Ah OK.

It's a tit for tat, is it? A strange game of "he started it".

I'd love to hear your explanation of doctors creating another medical disaster or teachers abusing positions, but would you like to pretend children don't die under the care of parents?

I chose to "take you on" because you were deliberately obstructive in answering questions,

although there;s a reason MN clamps down on posters who connect trans with autism).

It's the result of historic underdiagnosis of autistic women, meaning a lack of official records on typical experiences of puberty for autistic teenage girls, coupled with institutional undervaluing of autistic women over 30 and their insights into what puberty is like for autistic teenagers. This knowledge gap means that typical struggles of autistic teens (which are being exacerbated by modern culture) are being solely interpreted through the present-day lens of gender identity theory. In previous generations, autism also used to get misdiagnosed as schizophrenia, particularly in teenagers experiencing what is now nicknamed 'autistic burnout'.

Fortunately for me, I was born after the phase where autism was misdiagnosed as schizophrenia, but before Gen Z, so I never ended up on unnecessary anti-psychotics or on the path to elective mastectomy (30% chance of chronic pain after one) or an elective hysterectomy (throwing you into premature menopause with all the risks that carries).

Various people have co-opted disability rights language in order to claim that it is ableist to express concerns about disabled girls, with a condition that is heritable, having treatment that will destroy their fertility. It's quite clever of them, as well as being a complete and utter flaming liberty. They like to claim this in between claiming we don't want people to exist if they experience distress over their gender. Ironically, they really, really, really don't take it well when gender-critical autistic people point out that the optics suggest they don't want autistic people to exist... Personally, I like my offspring; I'm glad I got the chance to make peace with my body and move forward into adulthood, without anyone offering child me irreversible medical treatment to interfere with puberty, or permanently impair my fertility. I can tell you that I am not alone in that.

By the way, spent the day with some non-binary young adults. At no point did I want any of them to stop existing. I never do. I do have various concerns for them and their longterm health, which I will not go into here.

although there;s a reason MN clamps down on posters who connect trans with autism).

I didn’t think there was anything in the posting guidelines about posts discussing potential connections between people with autism and ‘trans’.

That seems to be a wrong interpretation.

It is discussed and referred to many threads.

There is, of course, the guidelines where posts making negative generalisations about any group are removed. This includes making negative generalisations about regular posters on MN feminism boards, whether based on a posters own prejudices or another reason.

However, the under researched ‘connection’ between having a transgender identity and autism is certainly allowed to be discussed and referenced.

There is, of course, the guidelines where posts making negative generalisations about any group are removed.

To clarify. These posts would be only removed if they are reported or come to the attention of the moderators some other way.

Many posts are not reported by regular posters but left to highlight discussion points.

"although there;s a reason MN clamps down on posters who connect trans with autism."

No it doesn't! It's discussed all the time. There has found to be a much higher (than would be in the general population) number of autistic girls referred to GIDS. This is reflected in the discussion on MN and Twitter. It reflects the profile of the young people who identify as trans, which to me means they are being discriminated against on the grounds of disability by my workplace actively promoting trans as a choice., They are being allowed to make harmful choices for themselves, and not protected. I keep pointing this out.

Re: LM, not got time now to research this person again, but I recall them being very upfront and outspoken about suing their school. They didn't seem particularly vulnerable to me. It has been years since I read about it though, so I might be remembering wrongly.

Oh and National Autistic Society have been shamefully silent on this, as have CAMHS.

Lm got handed what they wanted. And praised and placed on a pedestal. Took opportunities meant for women and has been openly racist and offensive on social media and gotten away with it.

The ones who really had it hard were pupils with the other protected characteristics of religion,disability, sex ( females) who lost their safety privacy akd dignity when the school chose the feelings of a male over the.legal rights and safety of the girls.

No i do not worry about a male person who got so much free stuff and opportunities as a reward fir being an entitled male. They threw their brother under a bus to save face.

LM was just fine.

The girls at the school on the other hand. Treated merely like props and human shields fir a male .

Thanks @Whatwould - that's what I recall. Lots of acts of male entitlement from a very confident young person. I didn't know about the throwing a brother under the bus? What was that about?

Their social media profile read " Saville apprentice" and rape.com Iirc.

They blamed their brother for it.

I spent my school years being unable to wear trousers. In both primary and secondary school

There are still schools out there that don't have trousers on the girls list of uniform. In 2022. Lm achieved in a short time what parents and girls have yet to achieve In some schools.

Not to mention the fact that many schools also have skirts which cist a fortune. Dds school skirts are 18.50. Boys can buy their trousers fom.tesco.

Its automatically more expensive for girls to attend school especially if the limited number if trousers permitted don't fit which is a problem we have encountered many a time.

Are we discussing Madigan? The transitioned male who was the in the ‘women’s officer’ role? Or am I thinking of someone else?

At what point does it become ok for a male to be appointed into a role meant and created for females to address the sexist discrimination females have and continue to experience and to ensure policy decisions fully consider the needs of all females? All females. Not males.

I find this particularly concerning for university and political party women’s officer roles.

I'm also curious as to whether stop would still feel LM.had it super hard , Worse than the girls who lost their privacy, if the second side if the story turned out to be true.

The secind side being that LM.was not sent home for wearing the " girls uniform " they were sent home for wearing clothing that would have been inappropriate for any of the students male or female and was not part of the uniform/ dress code policy. And that actually the school tried hard to placate LM but they were having none of it.

I spent my school years being unable to wear trousers. In both primary and secondary school

a few years ago the local comprehensive where my dad lived had girls that wanted to wear trousers but weren’t allowed

the school thought they’d be clever about it and told the girls that was fine….as long as they wore boys trousers

my dad thought that was funny…he either doesn’t now or has learnt not to say its funny in front of me 😀

i think the girls kept going and were finally able to wear trousers from the girls/women’s section

(my dad’s lovely by the way, always very prepared to listen to an alternative view. Just sometimes has a wee bit of a blind spot)

The first doesn't exclude the latter.
As for the examples of doctors and teachers causing harm, I would suggest Google.
I'll start you off
Lobotomy............