Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

Because you cant fuck something off just because you dont like it.

Huh? 😂

Do you actually read posts? Or just assume everything is about you?

Fuck that is funny!

Just wanted to say that I think in remember your posts on other threads- advanced search is still useless. And I hear you.

I'm not tone policing anyone.

I think telling posters they are ‘spouting opinions’, telling posters they are ‘patronizing’ and Mumsnet in general they are pontificating pretty much counts as tone policing. I remember earlier posts too but I am not going to bother pointing out more. People reading the thread all at once will have seen them and noticed. Your prejudice is there for all to see.

These boards just don't like anyone having a different opinion.

Actually, many conversations happen with people with different opinions. Rarely though with posters who so quickly descend to denigrating, demonising and admonishing posters. Very rarely with posters who enter the board with a prejudiced view that posters here ‘hate trans people’.

Again, for I don’t know how many times… some posters here have just as much ‘daily’ contact with teenagers who have declared their trans identities. Rather than the ‘faux concern’ you accused posters of at the start of this thread, these are loved ones. And again, we are involved in many more expansive ways than merely being in school conditions with these teens and a children. I don’t know any posters on this thread who warranted such accusations as you have flung out.

It's perfectly OK to be sarcastic, rude and flippant to me, but everyone's mightily offended at me doing the same back, all while chatting to each other about how dreadful I am

Nah. You have even admitted just how combative your posts are. You don’t answer questions, you simply use posts as an opportunity to continue ad hominem attacks and leave the questions unanswered.

Please do crack on. Because I am sure that another four pages will be very informative for everyone.

an odd stance to take when i've been discussing the same thing for 30 odd pages, but carry on making things up. (the irony of this from one of the posters who spends a lot of time discussing with other people how terribly awful I am - if anyones being shut down, its me!

Hilarious post. From someone who got my post deleted because I said the words ‘fuck off’ because you posted how you would not accept posters experiences as parents. Didn’t you accuse someone of libel only a page or so ago? Really most of your posts for days have been accusatory, over-reactionary and, at times, bizarre .

And yes. Your hypocrisy is very clear. I doubt you can refute that you have admonished, denigrated and gone on to demonise the general MN FWR regular posters. Yet, you claim people are trying to silence you.

I also suspect you don’t even read posts properly before posting highly emotive and emotionally reactive statements and ignore any of the substance of the posts. You seem to have ceased to engage many pages ago.

No. I believe I have said before to crack on because it is a live demonstration that readers see and follow. They will go and look up things they are unsure about and make their own decisions. I know others on this thread will also want you to continue with your posts for the same reason.

I don’t believe I have seen one person attempt to ‘silence you’. Disagreement is not silencing. I doubt regular posters have even reported your posts when they cross the line. Because it is good to keep threads as intact as possible.

And the regular posting keeps threads up at the top and keeps them being read.

So please, crack on!

Instead of making grand, but ultimately content-free statements about being libelled, try answering the questions. For example, the following answer would work well:

"If it were up to me, I would keep the girls' toilets and changing rooms at my school female only. If I ever gave permission to a male pupil to use the girls' spaces (making them mixed-sex), I would feel sick with guilt the very first time I heard that pupil accused of sexual assault."

Is that an answer you would sign?

P.S. these were the questions I asked. I asked them because Stopwaiting referred to LM not having been allowed to use the girls' toilets at school, and said it wasn't a "barrel of laughs" for LM. To me, the clear inference there is that LM ^should have been allowed.

So I ask, if it was up to you to give permission to a male transitioner to use female-only spaces at a school, and you gave permission, how many sexual assaults would they have to be accused of before you questioned your initial judgement?

How many assaults before you felt you'd failed the female pupils?

All Stopwaiting has to say is, "the first assault would be enough".

Unlike certain people, I do not delude myself that I can read people's minds. I do this thing called "asking". People have been doing it for thousands of years. The alternative to asking is that I just assume the worst from other people's posts and don't give any of you the opportunity to correct miscommunications, but I think that's uncivilised.

I've read this whole thread and have learned a lot, and it does seem that one poster is straddling a fence that appears to me to be incredibly uncomfortable. Stopwaitinf, you state quite clearly that you do not support males in female spaces etc, but then seem to contradict yourself, but this seems to be based on what you are forced to do because of your workplace rules. It seems to me that Stopwaiting's situation at work demonstrates really rather beautifully current culture - feelings are more important than facts to the organisation involved, and those trying to help their students are turning their worlds upside down and inside out to try to reconcile a clearly bad set of rules and dreadful consequences, against their own sense of self as a good, caring person. That must be very painful. I may have understood the situation incorrectly, apologies if so.

I think it would be helpful if schools recognised that they only see a snapshot of a child in a particular environment, and they are unlikely to understand the full situation of that child in what is a rapidly developing general issue. I think a responsible approach would be one of caution, particularly on the back of Cass. Obviously the lobby groups (and in particular, LGBTYS) disagree.

<and as an aside, I can’t believe this thread is still ongoing!>

Yes rogdmum. My own teen is a great example of this. And I am surprised someone with any depth of teaching experience doesn’t understand this.

My own teen reacts very differently to out of school situations than in school situations because they have told me themselves and their teacher’s comments. Even those people at school who spend a great deal of time with my child because of different projects, student parliament etc have a view of my teen that is a ‘school’ persona.

It is like those people who think everyone ‘takes their whole self to work’. No, Some people don’t.

My own teen reacts very differently to out of school situations than in school situations because they have told me themselves and their teacher’s comments. Even those people at school who spend a great deal of time with my child because of different projects, student parliament etc have a view of my teen that is a ‘school’ persona

I've had some quite lengthy conversations with my teen about all this too. If I'm honest she doesn't really believe in it but she doesn't want to upset friends etc so she plays along at school but is very heavily relying on the adults to set the bounderies. For them to make sure it's safe to use a pronoun or name to whatever because the teachers are going to stop it before it gets to a point where they either have to follow through and lose their space/privacy or make a stand and be rejected by those who feel differently.

The huge problem we have is obviously many adults aren't providing this boundary when they should and are watching these kids back themselves into a corner where it will not end well for them.

The fact that adults aren't prepared to speak up yet assume silence is compliance with children and don't see a problem is disturbing.

As much as much of it is beyond my dds understanding mainly because she like the pp sees kids amd is struggling to link those kids at school to the problem they are being used to distract from the dark side of the ideology, she wants me and others to continue speaking up for womens rights . Clearly because that boundary is so desperately needed because without it they know just how much trouble they can be in.

Agreed 100% @Helleofabore. Isn't that something that is taught on a pgce? If not, it absolutely should be!

I am surprised someone with any depth of teaching experience doesn’t understand this.
In fairness, Stop has said he is not a teacher and only works with pupils who require specific input. Ie he doesn't have depth of teaching experience, nor breadth.
Having seen the words "be yourself" scattered around in frivolous contexts, I doubt that the general public has thought deeply about what the words mean. Certainly there is no shared understanding.

Do you fancy a fourth essay responding to the Same sentence or is three enough?
Not that I read any

I'm not a he.

Re my username, it's a quote from a film.

Appreciate your post.

TeamSukhareva

point taken.

So, maybe I should reframe it to be:

I am surprised someone with any depth of experience relating to children or teens doesn’t understand this.

Or discounts the views of people, in this case parents, who DO have that depth.

If I took my teens teacher’s view and awareness of their situation and their ‘actions’, it would be remarkably different to the reality. My teen showed me a reference given to them by a teacher who has spent a lot of time in different school scenarios with them over past 6 years, and my teen laughed at the ‘very social’ description labelled to them. My teen is so good with their ‘school persona’ when they are actually the opposite but very good at masking when they have to.

Equally, school staff can sometimes have a better understanding than their parents. I'm sure we aren't going to pretend otherwise.

I am not pretending anything on this thread.

Or on Mumsnet. Work requires business like performance as most workplaces do and this may mean not being completely honest at times.

In this case you cant though can you? Because you admitted yourself its too difficult for kids to understand. Adults don't even understand it.

You seem to agree iirc with affirming identities though but can't give a definitive answer as to what these identities in these children are that you are affirming. It also seems to he a thing now where identities change. Going from NB to being a transman for instance.

So syrley if you affirmed the NB identity you and the child were wrong befire so what makes you think its the right one now?

Perhaps schools just shouldn't get involved at all given they don't know the kids don't know and kids act differently at school than home and it's getting in the way of safguarding

*I'm not a he.

Re my username, it's a quote from a film.*

Oh... Didn't you say you were a middle-aged man about twenty pages ago, or did I misread/ misattribute? And isn't the film about a boy who does a drag act? Sorry for confusion. Suddenly reminded of ancient coding bulletin boards and suddenly realising we had literally zero clue whether any user was male or female.

Why do you appreciate my post?

Because I've correctly identified the conundrum you find yourself in?

That's to Stopwaiting, fwiw