Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

I have said frequently I dong agree with shared spaces.

However , a poster , I forget who now, seemed to imply that Lily was being championed as an adult.

I didn't imply it, I said it had happened. This is what I said about Madigan: "Lauded by the Labour Party, given a post of women's officer, Angela Rayner said she was just keeping the seat warm for Madigan in the HoC..."

I simply pointed out her school experience mist have been hard for her.

This is from the OP of a thread about Lily I posted a link to earlier:

The school's staff tried very hard to placate Lily. They had meetings with their mother, the pastoral care team, etc - and got nowhere. It apparently caused distress to Lily's younger sister who was at school.

Lily contacted a solicitor in London. Because of the Equality Act the school did have to cater to transgender pupils - and when the school was informed of their obligations they changed their policy in accordance to the Act.

There was no suing of the school. There was no legal action, certainly no "legal battle", as Lily repeatedly claims.

There was no victimisation of Lily. Afterwards, the school said they had tried very hard for Lily and their words and actions had been deliberately twisted.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3432767-Lily-Madigan-and-the-School-Saga

It wouldn't hurt you to click on the links people have gone to the trouble to find for you.

In the real world, we dont pretend otherwise through our dislike of trans.

What do you mean by 'dislike of trans'?

In the real world, we dont pretend otherwise through our dislike of trans.

Who the fuck has expressed a ‘dislike of trans’ on this thread? Please copy and paste where that has been said.

Otherwise, it is more of that prejudice about posters on this board coming through.

Try again without a banned word: I do not believe it's worth women's time and energy to engage in discussion with someone who thinks
Like here. When boys and men are worth less.tham women

I presume @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou is referring to MN in this post.

Why isn't it the responsibility of males to sort their own shit out. Why do women and girls only get what they need if men say they can and of we have sorted out all their problems first?

Excellent questions @Whatwouldscullydo and ones we need to keep asking. Over and over and over again.

And answer came there none.

Like here. When boys and men are worth less than women

Extraordinary to see such a claim. That really does come from some deep prejudice about the posters on MN. So centring females of all genders and ages now deserves this type of derision.

Good to know.

(not really extraordinary really, because the continued admonishment on this thread leads me to expect such an opinion)

I am.

I obviously dont think that, but posters on these boards do.

Mmm.My friend took her boss to a tribunal last year for ridiculous behaviour. He claimed he had supported her.

She won.

Imagine.

Like here. When boys and men are worth less.tham women

This is a feminist board. Most (all?) of us love our fathers, sons, male friends, partners, brothers etc. As feminists we analyse a patriarchal society and centre women in our analysis. That's not hating men - except when teenagers claim establishing boundaries means I hate them
I recall stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou that some of your your first frenzied posts were about how we dislike boys and men. Few, if any of us, do.

I just put it down to the constant denigration we have seen on this and other threads.

When posters who are desperate to tone police everyone else but cannot see the blatant hypocrisy in their own posts using words like ‘pontificating’ ‘spouting opinions’ as a most recent example, the hyperbole and hypocrisy will just keep on coming.

It really is same old, same old isn’t it? Denigrate, demonise, falsely attribute, name call, admonish, virtue signal … then rinse and repeat.

Bits of this thread remind me of this one Helleofabore. Mainly the bit where they're on top of the building shouting abuse

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4549136-peter-boghossian

Yes, the hypocrisy was writ large there. Good video to see the lack of solid foundation behind the constant need to shut down discussion.

It always ends up the same way, doesn't it? An attempt to shame us into thinking differently, then aggression, then name calling. No acknowledgment that we have done our homework, we have done years of research, these are our own children caught up in this. No, no, we're just wrong and ignorant and blah blah blah. Same old same old. Seen it a thousand times.

How so?

P.S. you're not even posting under your real name, so no, my posts are not "libellous".

Unless you are implying that people are incapable of committing sexual assault until they turn 18, that is precisely the point.

We plan for the worst, and keep female spaces female only, because we can never know which male person is going to be abusive. But assuming someone is safe because they have not been implicated in behaviour facilitates violence against women!

People do not walk around with hovering signs above their heads saying "I will commit sexual assault, given the opportunity". A DBS check is only ever evidence that someone hasn't been caught yet, not a certification of sainthood. While we're on the subject, abuse victims often delay making allegations out of fear of reprisal, or fear of the investigative process, or their own state of denial.

If a hypothetical young person is accused of sexually assaulting multiple people at university, it would be more likely that they had also engaged in abusive behaviour at school and sixth form, than it would be that they had had a complete personality change during Freshers' Week.

Anyone want to explain which bit might be "not true"? Do sexual offenders walk around with neon signs above their heads?

You've all been so patient, wot with gish galloping all over the place. And, mostly, very polite.

Shutting down discussion?

an odd stance to take when i've been discussing the same thing for 30 odd pages, but carry on making things up. (the irony of this from one of the posters who spends a lot of time discussing with other people how terribly awful I am - if anyones being shut down, its me!)

To suggest I sit by and let pupils be sexually assaulted is.

I'm not tone policing anyone. These boards just don't like anyone having a different opinion. It's perfectly OK to be sarcastic, rude and flippant to me, but everyone's mightily offended at me doing the same back, all while chatting to each other about how dreadful I am.

Takes me back to the playground days.

I've been following and posting on this thread since the start. Complete fuckery, headfuck, nonsense from some endz. But that's part for the course I suppose

Oh hello again.

I did attempt to make sense of your comment but failed

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

What makes you think I'm talking about you?

Because I'm not stupid.

Quite fucking frankly, with all of the evidence now collected of the harm that trans ideology is causing, it should have been fucked off by now. Strangely enough, this oppressed and marginalised ideology, backed by big pharma and billionaire transgender males, is still going strong. We wonder why? We wonder why??

Civilisations in all hemispheres and ages has progressed without teenage girls feeling a need to cut their breasts off. Just FUCK OFF with this shit that it's normal to get your tits cut off! Look to porn, look to money, look to men oppressing women. but stop this crap narrative that it is inate in females to cut off a beautiful, life-giving, and meaningful part of our body.