Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

Did I say I was kind?

Ironic btw, given your level of contribution has been to pop up just to have a go at me!

That isn't my job.

One poster on this thread spoke of a school.

I was told on the last page how ARROGANT I am to base my views on my school. Is that just me, then?

Not at 17, she wasnt.

What an utterly...bizarre....point to make. Very odd.

Unless you are implying that people are incapable of committing sexual assault until they turn 18, that is precisely the point.

We plan for the worst, and keep female spaces female only, because we can never know which male person is going to be abusive. But assuming someone is safe because they have not been implicated in behaviour facilitates violence against women!

People do not walk around with hovering signs above their heads saying "I will commit sexual assault, given the opportunity". A DBS check is only ever evidence that someone hasn't been caught yet, not a certification of sainthood. While we're on the subject, abuse victims often delay making allegations out of fear of reprisal, or fear of the investigative process, or their own state of denial.

If a hypothetical young person is accused of sexually assaulting multiple people at university, it would be more likely that they had also engaged in abusive behaviour at school and sixth form, than it would be that they had had a complete personality change during Freshers' Week.

One poster on this thread spoke of a school.

There has been more than one. I have spoken of a school as well as rogdmum.

There has been more than one parent posting on this thread. I guess you really have completely discounted other parents on this thread.

Your posts imply you think LM should have been allowed to use girls' toilets.

So I ask, if it was up to you to give permission to a male transitioner to use female-only spaces at a school, and you gave permission, how many sexual assaults would they have to be accused of before you questioned your initial judgement?

How many assaults before you felt you'd failed the female pupils?

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou:
"Not interested"

Indeed. I thought I was probably wasting my time. Oh well. Never mind.

@sowiwag
I guess the thread is already at best on a siding away from the main line by now, anyway.
Lol
Fwiw I enjoyed your post. I love a bit of philosophy on the nature of truth to start the day.

For fucks sake. It implied nothing of the sort.

I have said multiple multiple times I dont agree with it.

So piss off with the frankly libellous posts.

Now now.

Dont be deceitful.

Weve moved past page 4 where I proved I wasnt dismissing anyones views after an attempt to make out I do.

I'm glad it entertained you, as it was a waste of time attempt to goad me.

Dont really know what to say other than simply not true.

What of those who believe different sexes are of inherent different worth.

Like here.
When boys and men are worth less.tham women and girls.

Weve moved past page 4 where I proved I wasnt dismissing anyones views after an attempt to make out I do.

No. You proved nothing. You tried to convince people with your adamance but failed.

I have also relayed to you experiences with my child’s school, as have other parents. Somehow, you choose to minimise and dismiss them.

You really seem to be fucking unable to take on anyone else’s experiences in your determination that you are righteous.

Are you so determined to believe that what we are telling you is and has happened is what, lies? Misunderstandings from our end? FFS.

You continue to miss the point. Some of us are also ‘physically’ with teens who identify as trans on a ‘daily basis’. In our daily life, in our homes.

And when I asked you what you do when a parent is not supporting the schools actions or doesn’t even you, you simply state ‘not my job’.

So does that mean you don’t care that the parents may not be supportive of the schools actions?

Does that mean you don’t ascertain that the parents know and agree first? Because it isn’t your job and you are just carrying out what someone with more authority says?

Or are you continuing to state it just doesn’t happen?

Because I know very well it does happen, so what do you do when you discover a child/teen that the school has agreed to socially transition hasn’t got parents permission or even told their parents?

Well, you did say (about Lily Madigan):

The 19 year old who wasn't allowed in a female toilet, was forced to wear boys uniform and called her dead name throughout school?

Barrel of laughs.

This implies (to me) that you think LM should have been allowed to use the girls' toilet, as well as being allowed to wear the girls' uniform and being called Lily.

If you find other posters are frequently misunderstanding what you intend to convey in your posts, perhaps you should consider making your meaning clearer, so that this is less likely to happen.

The message clearly seems to be that despite the fact girls are being placed in physical danger by having males change in with them and ending up with cracked ribs and breathing difficulties as a result of binders , is less of a problem.than boys laughing at other male children. And that expecting males to take responsibility for their own hostility towards bin conforming males is somehow favouring girls.

Between being laughed at and being unable to breathe properly and missing pe because you cant run for very long, which is nore physically and permanently damaging?

Why isn't it the responsibility of males to sort their own shit out. Why do women and girls only get what they need if men say they can and of we have sorted out all their problems first?

Thanks SeanChailleach.

Yes, what is truth? Fun.

I notice, in my dotage, the spread of those who add to the promulgation of lies the propagation of misapprehensions about the nature of truth – essentially for the same reasons in both cases of course. ’Twas ever thus? Maybe. Lately exacerbated by social media etc., though but.

Some of this is deliberate, some accidental; the poster stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou who just does not understand, and is not interested, for example. Still dangerous? I think so.

(MN sex & gender board, a microcosm – with its own individual importance too of course – of those who gather to express the problem and fight back.)

I wonder what appropriate measures we might/should (morally, rationally, democratically) take to save ourselves and our children, not just from those who consciously and intentionally distress public understanding for nefarious means, but from cognitively-challenged fellow-travellers like stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou here – of which there seem to be legion. Hmm?

Children/young people are going to meet and encounter many people who don't have the best intentions, unfortunately. They need to learn how to handle these situations.

Having worked in schools, and now parenting children going through the education system, I've come across all sorts of people in education with ideas, drives, or beliefs that could potentially be damaging to children - from the hardcore Christian teacher who sent home a primary 2 class in tears with graphic descriptions of crucifixion, to the predatory paedophiles, to the plain common or garden teachers who can't discipline a class and resort to draconian punishments. These people exist, and always will do. (And that is absolutely not to discount the many committed, supportive, nurturing, and highly skilled staff and teachers who work in schools, who are of course the majority).

So, I talk with my children, listen to their concerns, and help them to develop critical thinking and strategies for dealing with people in positions of power who may be less able or willing to look out for the best interests of those in their care - whether that is done with good or bad faith.

The problems we face now are where the potentially harmful issues/ideologies are actually getting baked into legislation, presented as the single True Way, and where teachers/staff are unable or too scared to question or dissent. Of course this is all the red flags out waving. Hopefully at some point those in power will take notice of all the many people pointing out the issues - the creation of sacred castes, the authoritarian dogma, the erosion of trust, the reliance on faith-based assertions that aren't to be questioned, etc.

No they really dont.

I have said frequently I dong agree with shared spaces.

However , a poster , I forget who now, seemed to imply that Lily was being championed as an adult.

I simply pointed out her school experience mist have been hard for her.

In the real world, we dont pretend otherwise through our dislike of trans.

.🤣🤣

I've never been righteous in my life. I just have a different opinion. Ifs allowed.

Are you aware of how patronising you are?

So again, no answer to my question on what you would do if the parents have not given permission, who may not even know what the school is doing when the school is transitioning their child.

This is exactly where a ‘difference of opinion’ is harmful, isn’t it? Do you or don’t you support a school transitioning a child or teen without permission, without even the knowledge of the parents?

You are someone who has told us you are working with students. It is you who won’t answer the question I have asked.