Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

You think it gets you off the hook if the parents are on board ?

Who tells the kid the truth then if you don't?

Someone else's problem again then I guess. Sensing a theme here...

I;ve tried to take your posts reasonably but you are repeatedly saying things I didn't say.

I have never said children can change sex, nor do I say that.

I'm also not scared of consequences of "telling the truth", but I also don't live in cloud cuckoo land where I can spout opinions at whim.

Are you aware we aren't allowed, as part of the GTCs, to share political opinions with children? Or religious beliefs? It's one of the standards. So you think I'd have a job tomorrow if I marched in and repeated some of the things said on this thread even if I believed them?

Well, not you.

We are the people who worked through the pandemic with these children and care about them like they're our own.

Do not sit there and tell me I'm passing the buck.

BTW, you're contradicting yourself. Two minutes ago I was isolating them from their parents, now I SHOULD isolate them from their parents by telling them an agenda which goes against their parents?

I'm not on a hook. But it's all very well for you sat behind a computer screen, telling me what I should be doing.

If the parents are endangering a child then yes that's where outsiders step in.

Lying to kids about their bodies is what abusers do. Some times those abusers are the parents.

Do you not think its a bit ridiculous that you, an anonymous poster on a forum, thinks you know better than a young persons teacher and their parent? Does that really pass you by?

Would you be OK if your child was told things by a random stranger which went against you and their teacher?

Course you wouldn't. Wind your neck in. Criticise my beliefs, challenge my thoughts, but dont you dare suggest im passing the buck. Because incidentally, if I was, I wouldn't be taking the viewpoint I do!

No. We were discussing Lily Madigan, who has been accused of several sexual assaults.

Speaking generally, it seems apparent that some people seem to go by the "logic" that because it's socially acceptable to lie to a child about, say, Father Christmas, it's OK to lie to them about anything.

Personally I find this appalling and would hope that people who are in any kind of safeguarding position around children would realise this doesn't 'allow' them to lie willy-nilly, however comfortable it might make the adult - it needs to be what's in the best interest of safety of the children. The adult's comfort should not be the focus. However, in my experience, sometimes the feelings of the adult take centre stage when trying to justify their actions.

I dont need to " know better" I just need to know what's real.

And anyone not prepared to keep kids safe by keeping them grounded in reality shouldn't be around children.

Hm. I know several teachers have expressed concerns about the latest guidance from the Scotgov. It puts them in an untenable position - follow the guidance now, leave themselves open to lawsuits etc further down the line.

All of it is, of course, further eroding trust between parents and schools, as well as between the electorate and the govt. Hey ho.

I;ve tried to take your posts reasonably but you are repeatedly saying things I didn't say.

You seem not to have noticed that I have been asking for clarification from you in each of my posts this evening by either asking questions or saying 'you seem to be saying'. If that's not what you meant, you can explain what you did mean.

But this was our earlier exchange this evening:

I said:
You don't understand why people disagree with lying to children and encouraging them to believe something impossible which will have detrimental effects on them?

Surely that's not what you meant to say?

You replied:
Yeah, i said i find it hard to understand.

So you did say that you don't understand why some of us think you shouldn't lie to children about stuff like this.

as an adult.

Yes, your feelings around trans trumps the feelings of children. that is clear

Not understanding and finding it hard are two different things

Except in the case where parents support the decision, in which case my clear MN guidance is to trample that.

Do you remember the GIDS
whistle blowers

In one of the cases staff suspected the dad was a paedophile and was keen on hormonal treatment to suppress puberty for disturbing reasons.staff also suspected homphobic parents in some cases. Would rather a straight son than a gay daughter.

Reality, is important. Being aware if reality is a huge part of helping keep kids safe.

Who benefits from kids confused about their gender and placing themselves in risky situations cheered on by the adults around them?

Not the kids.

If any if these trainers realky believed in any if this then why aren't nursing homes and church congregations undergoing tbe same training?

Why kids?

Have you ever asked yourself why?

Someone needs to be honest with these children. But it's apparently to lie if enough adults around them are also lying.

And it's also apparently OK to lie to a child behind parents backs .

There is no benefit to these children in lying to them this way. They are just being used fir adults to feel better about themselves.

No, that doesn’t make sense at all. To see why, ask yourself whether you think you’re right when you say you don’t think you’re right but also don’t think you’re wrong. Do you think you are right about this, or is it that you don’t think you’re right but also don’t think you’re wrong about it? How is anybody to know what you think – about whether what you say you think is right or wrong, or anything else?

Likewise, ask yourself whether you’re right to think no-one else is wrong although you don’t agree with them. And so on.

It is clear you really just don’t understand, I’m afraid. Have another go at reading what I wrote above, and … well, look … there is little sense in reinventing the wheel here. Others have done this over the years. Here’s one (Myles Burnyeat The Theaetetus of Plato, P. 30):

“Isn't there something inherently paradoxical about someone asserting (or believing) that all truth is relative? That proposition sums up the message of a completely general relativism, but when asserted it is propounded as itself a truth. The reason for this is simple but fundamental: to assert anything is to assert it as a truth, as something which is the case. (Analogously, to believe something is to accept it as true.) The relativist may reply that 'All truth is relative' is not asserted as an absolute truth, which would indeed be self-refuting, but only as a relative one: it is true for me that all truth is relative. This is no help. This second proposition is less interesting (because it is no longer clear that the objectivity of our beliefs is jeopardized if relativism is true only for the relativist), but it is still an assertion. 'It is true for me that all truth is relative' is put forward as itself true without qualification. A commitment to truth absolute is bound up with the very act of assertion.”

– Do you see how that applies to what you are trying to say? And how what you say denies itself?

Aristotle has good stuff on all this too. Easy enough to find if you look, I think. Or maybe someone else would like to tell you. It is not at all new.

I suspect you have insufficient awareness of your own level of understanding, something that may explain the way this thread has gone. Of course maybe you just like pretending to engage with all these clever (mostly) women. That’s OK, I suppose. No harm. It’s only the internet.

One last thing. “I’m not arrogant” is one of those assertions that usually strongly suggests its own falsity; a bit like “I’m cool, me” or “I don’t care (that nobody wants to play with me)”. It’s interesting to compare how self-descriptions like this vitiate themselves with how relativism of truth self-destructs. (Or, well, some of us think so, anyway.)

(Not much to to do with explaining what’s wrong with certain ideas about gender to a twelve-year-old, perhaps. Though you never know. I have known some smart twelve-year-olds over the years. I guess the thread is already at best on a siding away from the main line by now, anyway.)

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

You dont care about children because they may or may not grow up to be abusers.

This is such a shitty and misrepresentative thing to say and so dismissive of women's fears. It's such a shame you're still being 'combative' as you put it, when you agree with the things people are saying but are trying to frame your version of them in a #bekind way.

We had training recently as I spoke about earlier on the thread and strangely enough it was rodgmum , despite people claiming on the thread how horrifically awful I am to everyone, that really got me thinking about WHY I'm so pro transgender. Simply put, it's because I see physical children sitting in front of me every day, I guess.

Simply put, it's because I see physical children sitting in front of me every day, I guess.

The point is, as I and others have raised, some of us also ‘see physical children sitting in front of us every day’.

That is the fucking point.

It is the point why many of the people posting about this topic on this board have done extensive research and do not depend on a heavily invested organization to tell us what we should be thinking.

Poster’s OWN personal situation. In their daily lives covering many more activities than would ever be discussed or witnessed in a school situation. Plus the experience of how their particular school deals with social transitioning. FFS.

Except in the case where parents support the decision,

Sorry, I might have missed something here. What do you do to establish whether the parent does support the social transitioning of their child?

And what do you do when a parent doesn’t either know, or support, the social transitioning of their child?

Apologies if you have answered. Please let me know the page number where you answered and I will go back. Ad I said, I might have missed it.

How do any of us know what anyone else really thinks? I know several teenage girls (friends/classmates of my daughter) who have declared themselves NB. I don't know how their mothers feel. It does my head in to think that they might think I am all in favour of gender identity.

I do know of one mother who is publicly supportive, although privately horrified, because she fears being blamed if her daughter's mental state gets any worse. I don't know the girl herself.

I can see that it is possible for the girls to feel that literally everyone except their own parents is totally agree with gender identity.

I would approach it by asking questions. We all know how resistant people, especially teens, are to being told things by their parents.

Just ask very simple questions like 'can humans change sex?' how? how is that different to cosmetic surgery? If I don't identify as a woman, am I still a woman? What would I be? Why?

Make him explain the ideology and it will soon unravel.

If someone is heavily invested in how kind they are, but can't help making repeated attacks on other people trying to have a discussion it must be hard to maintain that self image. Cognitive dissonance is hard work.

It's even more of an issue when anyone thinks they can't possibly be breaking safeguarding principles because they - the adult - feel kindly about specific children. Essentially "how is my misleading a child putting them at risk, when I like them?"

Read about half of that.

Patronising, rude, and full of it. Not interested.