Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

This is an article about Lily Madigan from 2017:

www.kentlive.news/news/kent-news/transgender-labour-womens-officer-rochester-817234

Madigan made rape jokes and joked about being Jimmy Savile's apprentice.

More links on this thread.
www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/3096513-to-let-you-know-how-men-use-the-Equality-Act-to-undermine-womens-spaces

Some of the tweets have been deleted but are still available on archive.ph.

More background on this thread:
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3432767-Lily-Madigan-and-the-School-Saga

That's a really interesting point! I had always vaguely thought that males wearing 'feminine' clothing were ridiculed because of the cross-sex angle. I hadn't considered that perhaps it's because women's clothing styles - especially the hyper-feminised styles considered 'feminine' are actually inherently fairly ridiculous in themselves. By which - stiletto heels, puff sleeves, frills, decorative and unnecessary embellishments that are about emphasising the sexual availability and therefore subservient station of the wearer, rather than clothes made for the wearer themselves & comfort & practicality.

I do.

Which part of my post is that in response to @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou ?

Arrogant. 😂 I'm not even entertaining that with a response, you're ridiculous.

Please explain how it is dangerous for me to operate based on the community I'm in rather than what I read on the internet...?

We recently filled in a staff survey about racist or homophobic incidents. I replied based on what I see. Should I have started detailing statistics off the internet?

What a strange post.

I do disagree. I've said that numerous times.

I have always maintained the position that I don't believe in mixed spaces or transgender competing in sports.

It's not a black and white issue.

Okay so I am taking it from that that you disagree that Lily Madigan should have access to a female single sex toilet and yet you made sure you put that in your post as one of the egregious matters that Lily had to suffer at school, which seems odd and contradictory.

Oh I'm off Bunburying. Much more fun that hitting my head against a brick wall of naive arrogance here.

Or are you deeming a single sex female space as a space which includes TW?

Do you and your wee group feel very clever with your Bunbury chat? and you call me arrogant/

No, because, in the real world where people have compassion, if you read very carefully instead of writing nonsense -

I have already said - just because I disagree with something doesn't mean I don't think its shit for them

Lily was called her dead name, couldn't use toilets and had to wear girls uniform. Just because those things had to happen doesn't mean it hurt her any less (hence why I didn't think the fact shes been promoted to whatever now means she's had 'special' treatment in life).

It's really not hard to understand.

And you call me arrogant.

I'm not naive either, but I'd rather be naive than an unpleasant, sneering, bully on a forum.

Sorry @VestofAbsurdity , i read all 3 posts as one poster.

The bit about an arrogant bully and Bunburying was obviously not aimed at you.

Thank you for the clarification @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou .

I apologise for the way I phrased it, I had read it as Ex.

I don't agree with mixed spaces. I dom't agree with transgender in sports. I don't agree with biological men in womens' prisons.

But, as I've accepted time and time before, I'm far more sensitive when it comes to trans children, because its something I see every day. It's not arrogance, it's being human.

Apology accepted, thank you.

I too am sensitive towards children where we differ is I do not condone lying to them and allowing them to believe something that is impossible and will have detrimental effects long term on them.

I know.

And i do find that line of thought hard to understand, and i get very combative, but ultimately there are things we agree on.

You don't understand why people disagree with lying to children and encouraging them to believe something impossible which will have detrimental effects on them?

Surely that's not what you meant to say?

I just don't want males who sexually assault women to be using women's spaces, I don't really care how sad they are tbh.

Nothing good ever comes of lying to children and furthermore it's a classic abuser tactic, talk to any child who was a victim of CSA and listen to the lies their abusers told them to keep them compliant and afraid.

Lying to children is abhorrent, children deserve honesty.

Yeah, i said i find it hard to understand.

Shoot me

When will people on MN realise you can have your own opinion?!

I get it.

You dont care about children because they may or may not grow up to be abusers.

I said it earlier and il say it again.

I dont believe in an afterlife, but if a child told me granny had gone to heaven, how many of us would say nah she hasnt.

Zero of us.

Pp can call it arrogance but i look trans teens in the face every day . Its not that easy.

Pp can call it arrogance but i look trans teens in the face every day . Its not that easy

The right thing never is easy. Other wise every one would do it.

In a couple if years those kids won't be your problem so I guess its far easier to carry on lying.

You Knowwho cant pass it on in 2 years though. The parents. And the more you lie to them the bigger the rift between parent and child.

If you can tell me how isolating them.fron their families helps them then that would be great.

Oh behave.

Do you honestly think I have the opinions I do because I can just pass them off?

I waved off a lovely, bright, perfectly adjusted 17 year old last week. I cried for the rest of the day because I've worked with her since S1.

I should probably clarify I'm not a classroom subject teacher. I work specifically with children that need certain input.

Don't think for a second I wave them off without a second thought.

I dont agree with cases like rodg, of course I don't.

But if the parent is onboard....then what?

What you seem to be saying @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou, is that you believe that it's better to lie to children and encourage them to believe that they can change sex, rather than tell them the truth, even though you are aware that this will have detrimental effects in the long run.

Why do you do this? Because it seems to make them happier in the short term? Or because you are too scared of the immediate consequences if you tell the truth?