Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

How come whataboutery is only Ok if its in favour od women? None of this has anything to do with the topic at hand.

And thanks @DomesticatedZombie , but il ignore your arrogance on telling.me what language is used in my own town and community.

I pointed out that its far easier for.girls to dress in 'boys'.clothes, if you will, than boys, socially in a school setting.

What has this to do with anything? Girls are only allowed to wear the girls' uniform and boys the boys' uniform. So both are restricted, according to each school's uniform rules.

But more generally, it being more acceptable for girls to dress as boys should make 'transition' less necessary for girls, not more, if it's gender stereotypes they're trying to avoid. If a girl can dress like a boy and enjoy stereotypically male activities she has no need to 'identify as' a boy in order to do these things. A boy might feel he needs to 'identify as' a girl if he wants to wear dresses and enjoys stereotypically female activities, because these things are less acceptable for boys.

Not true.

Girls can wear skirts, trousers, leggings, skinny jeans (in my school) cardis, jumpers, tops over or under shirts.

Boys can wear?

This is such a minir point but the lengths of discussion to avoid a minor point rather than admit boys have it harder on that regard is outstanding.

Not true.

Which part?

That girls can only wear girls clothing.

I didn't say that. I said Girls are only allowed to wear the girls' uniform and boys the boys' uniform. So both are restricted, according to each school's uniform rules.

And you have no comments at all on the main part (last paragraph) of my post?

My kid is at a school where some boys wear skirts. It's not the massive deal some people are making it out to be.

A non grouping, non sexist one.

Does anyone understand what this even means? What is 'non grouping' ? What 'one'?

Sorry, I read that bit this morning and meant to come back to that bit.

Well, that's kinda my point. Physical transition isn't that common, and medically it's not something I agree with.

You must have a very understanding school.
I've worked in education for 7 years and have never seen a boy wear a skirt. Incidentaly, there's a documentary, film and musical about a boy not being able to wear a dress to prom, so not really "not a massive deal".

You asked what world I live in. I said one that doesn't group people and isn't sexist in its view.

Well, that's kinda my point. Physical transition isn't that common, and medically it's not something I agree with.

It's your point that there's less motivation for girls to transition than boys? That's not what I understood from your posts.

Are you also suggesting that fewer teenage girls are identifying as trans than boys? That's not what's happening (although I obviously don't know what's happening in your school).

IME, girls are more common. But every school and area is diferrent.

I don't think there's any less "motivation" for either sex. I think it's easier for girls to identify as trans. I've said that all along. For every person who suggests its down to other factors that only affect girls, I don't think it's "whataboutery" , I genuinely dont, to suggest that the number of boys transitioning might be higher if it was more socially acceptable.

I think it's easier for girls to identify as trans. I've said that all along. For every person who suggests its down to other factors that only affect girls, I don't think it's "whataboutery" , I genuinely dont, to suggest that the number of boys transitioning might be higher if it was more socially acceptable.

Why do you think it's more socially acceptable for girls? Identification has nothing to do with clothing.

And after your insistence that the trans child in the OP is a boy, I'm no longer sure if you mean girls when you say boys and vice versa.

Historically there used to be more boys than girls presenting to GIDS. Now it’s reversed to roughly 70/30 girls/boys (Bayswater stats are also roughly similar). So boys are now the minority but it’s a significant minority.

I don’t think we can say with any certainty that physical transition isn’t that common. GIDS figures are low, but we don’t know how many of the referrals have simply timed out of the children’s service or how many have switched to GenderGP. If you were to listen to Mermaids:

”Mermaids say that the vast majority of young people they see will continue with their gender reassignment process”

Page 16 here: www.tnlcommunityfund.org.uk/media/documents/Mermaids-UK-Review-Report_February-2019.pdf?mtime=20190219142027&focal=none

Going back to Lily Madigan, @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou you said this:

The 19 year old who wasn't allowed in a female toilet, was forced to wear boys uniform and called her dead name throughout school?
Barrel of laughs.

Yet I thought you disagreed with giving males access to female toilets, changing rooms, etc.?

In light of this:

Lily Madigan has subsequently fallen off the radar, following a series of allegations of sexual assault.

Still think 19 year old Lily should have had free and unfettered access to females toilets. etc., do you think it would have been a barrel of laughs for the females put in the position of sharing the space with Lily?

It seems a very inconvenient truth just how often this is revealed of those involved in or pushing the GI/Trans agenda, does that not give you pause for thought about it? Does it not concern you at all that the very people pushing this have serious concerns raised about them, do you not stop to think to whose benefit the removal of safeguarding and boundaries benefits?

Here is Lily giving a convincing argument as to why Lily should be on all female shortlists:

And explaining the rape jokes:

www.rt.com/uk/410541-rape-twitter-transgender-labour/

And here are some more details on the allegations:

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1168050960247283712.html

I don't think mentioning oppressive sexually abusive school environments for girls is "whataboutery". I think it's contextualising.

Quite right, PurgatoryofPotholes, all the information is out there, it is blinkered to believe that 'children' cannot be sexually abusive, it's as dismissive as that Labour MP who told a mother whose daughter had had to put up with a teenage boy wanking in the Changing Rooms that is was merely peer on peer abuse and should be ignored. If the boy had done that anywhere else outside of the school environment he would face being arrested for a criminal offence.

You are being flippant.

He identifies as a boy, which is what I meant, as well you know.

For reference, I am calling them boys and girls as I'm not misgendering a non existent child!

I do.

That doesnt mean I think that holding her up as someone who has had some form of special treatment is accurate when her school years will have been hell.

Just because I think something needs to happen, doesn't mean I think it's nice for the person involved.

So is pointing out the difficulties for boys.

Mermaids are toxic, though.

I'm going on my own experience as I have been throughout.

I'm going on my own experience as I have been throughout.
Anecdote is not the singular of data. It's incredibly arrogant, as well as potentially dangerous, for a teacher to operate on this principle.

Mermaids are toxic, though.

Something we ALL agree on then. 😁

<LGBTYS are massive sign posters to Mermaids. I have dozens of screenshots from their chat where they are telling children to contact Mermaids. It seems to be a default response no matter what the chat is about.>

Going back to gendered clothing, many feminine clothes celebrate female sexual characteristics at the expense of practicality while masculine clothes are primarily practical and rarely sexualised.
Eg a woman's ballgown usually emphasises the hourglass shape with bosom, and high-heeled shoes usually exaggerate the bosom and buttocks.
A man's black tie outfit hides the bodyshape somewhat and covers up the muscles. Cowboys do wear high heels - to keep their feet in stirrups and allow them to run on their toes over rough ground.
Men can and do wear clothes/hairstyles that are sometimes coded as "feminine" - colourful suits, sequins florals and pastel colours, long loose (straight) hair, big Afros, long hair in a bun, long straight or Afro hair in braids, long kameez, kilts, kaftans, cassocks, kimono. Leotards and tights. All of these are unsurprising and entirely masculine in a range of contexts.
When women dress in masculine clothes, it is often in order to be practical, not masculine.
When men choose to dress in ballgowns, miniskirts, or frocks with fake bosoms, it feels uncomfortable for many onlookers because it is overtly cross-sexualised, not because it's breaking stereotypes.
I cannot think of equivalent masculine clothing that if a woman were to wear it would look cross-sexualised.