Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

You can't compare able bodied privilege to race or gender privilege because one is physically possible and one isn't.

I'm going to have to leave it here because I genuinely can't parse your statements. Gnight!

Thats a change of argument, though.

We are talking about, the conversation, we originally had, why society can't be label less.

If it should be, or is, kids wouldn't need to bind either (incidentally, I don't agree with that either).

If you still completely reject privilege as a concept you are in danger of sounding like you think X group of people are where they are because of something innate to them, not because they are disadvantaged in a society that discriminates on numerous levels by Y.

Absolutely this.

And the poster is saying this all while arguing that trans boys have privileges that trans girls dont!

I've been so patient and measured tonight and I try so hard to be kind and really listen and take on board other POV.

But it always, always comes down to 'girls and women don't have it as feminists they portray' or 'men face more hardship'.

It's exhausting.

You mean like when people refuse to accept what trans kids tell them what they mean by it?

Annoying, isn it?

Well, I reject privilege as a concept, so if you can't cope with that, given that its nothing to do with the OP, we will just have to agree to disagree!

Ironic that you say you're going because you cant figure out my statement whereas you claim that I sound like I think X group of people are where they are because of something innate to them, whcih I completely reject, and in fact is something you are arguing!

We are talking about, the conversation, we originally had, why society can't be label less.

If it should be, or is, kids wouldn't need to bind either (incidentally, I don't agree with that either).

Exactly!!! Which is why I think children being encouraged to change their gender identity is damaging. Because it encourages labelling behaviours / interests / hobbies / preferences that are gender stereotypes.

If you agree that gender labels are harmful and unnecessary then you cannot agree with children changing their gender identity rather than being just themselves, a person who happens to enjoy stuff that was traditionally associated with the opposite sex.

You'd be called transphobic for this on Twitter. Or anywhere else, by TRAs.

Sorry, the "trans child" in the OP is a boy.

The 'trans child' in the OP is a girl. This is the first sentence of the OP:
My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother.

You were patient, you are measured, you are kind, you did listen and I appreciate it,.

"'girls and women don't have it as feminists they portray' or 'men face more hardship'." I didn't say anythning like this

I said, off the back of your own point about why gender cant be label less, that its the boys that prevent this, not the girls. Because teenage transmen face less barriers than teenage trans girls. One simple statement and you've completely turned, despite the fact I didn't say anything like what you're claiming above.

Sorry, the "trans child" in the OP is a boy

Nope.

Boy. He identifies as a boy.

Of course, this is the very nub of the argument.

twitter can kiss my arse.

I deal with real people in front of me.

I'm utterly confused Lynn. We had this conversation earlier tonight. I agree that the labels are uncecessry, I agree that they should be able to just be themselves, but as a school member of staff I support the process.

You understand this an hour ago, until I said I feel that F-M trans children have the better outcome as children/teens but that I feel the M-F movement in America etc colours our view. I stand by that, and it's hardly the most controversial statemet.

One simple statement and you've completely turned, despite the fact I didn't say anything like what you're claiming above.

Please stop saying I have turned.

The conversation has developed and you've said a number of things that I found troubling and I have been honest and challenged them.

I don't know you, I don't owe you ongoing loyalty of some sort if I don't agree with you just because I am nice and speak in a calm and measured way.

I can only respond honestly to what people say. Disagreeing isn't 'turning on' an anonymous stranger. What an odd thing to think.

You can't have it both ways.

You pulled me up for misgendering earlier and now you're pulling me up for correcting a misgender.

Perhaps it's time to say g'night.

Course you dont owe me loyalty!

But you certainly took offence to a statement and started claiming things I said that I certainly haven't.

Indeed. Goodnight.

Again, we'll fight to protect you even if you feel we have advantages as natal women that we absolutely don't and even if you think the vulnerabilities of being a natal women are somehow compensated for by identifying as male, making it harder to be a M-F trans person than a F-M trans person.

I'm baffled by the way you've said I've 'turned on' you, I really am.

I've been consistently clear, honest and measured throughout the evening.

I also never said that trans boys have privileges that trans girls dont.

I dont agree with privilege as a concept as you know.
What I said was, the barrier to a "label less" society is not girls. It's boys. Which actually in effect feeds into a feminist viewpoint and questions males in general, but on this occasion I'm saying the boys have barriers at that age that the girls don't. Which is a fact.

As I said. I can go to work in jeans, trainers and a jumper but my male counterpart has to wear a shirt and tie and couldn't wear a suit.

A girl pupil could wear a similar outfit to me but a boy pupil could not realistically turn up in a skirt. that's a fact

Therefore, the odds are stacked against young MTF rather than FTM.that's just a fact.

I didn't say that. I never once said the vulnerabilities of being a woman are compensated for as identifying as male, that's a ridiculous leap.

Identifying as male doesn't stop sexual assault or murder.

All I ever said is what I've written above which was a direct response to you asking why we can't have a label less society in the first place!

When it comes to trans, despite all the concerns (which incidentally as I asked earlier, do they come from the abhorrent stories about adult men - given that I've already agreed i don't agree with mixed changing) the biggest barrier to gender being label less and childhood trans is not our view of girls. It's our view of boys. If a girl came to school with short hair, baggy jeans and a shirt, no one would bat an eyelid. If a boy came to school in a skirt and make up....?

And

A transman, ie an 18 year old girl coming out of school (let's remember this is who I am focusing on here) would have the benefits of living as a man while also having fantastic womens' rights campaigners fighting her corner.

How is the above also not saying this: I also never said that trans boys have privileges that trans girls dont.

?

If the biggest barrier to a society in which the sexes were both free, was our view of boys, the biggest increase in cross-sex identification would not be amongst girls, particularly autistic girls and girls who have previously been subjected to child sexual abuse.

All the trans teenagers I personally know today are female transitioners.

Therefore, the odds are stacked against young MTF rather than FTM.that's just a fact.

Except when it comes to, in your own words, the fact that: Identifying as male doesn't stop sexual assault or murder.

Not a privilege.

A fact. worth considering, that the trans child issue is weighted in favour of the girl, while the adult trans issue is weighted in favour of men. Hence why its such a controversial issue.

You should know i dont agree with the concept of privilege.

Yes, but I don't agree with mixed spaces (and I have never come across a trans child being allowed to use the same space yet), and the majority of women are killed by their partner, so girls in a school environment are surely at less risk than an adult woman.

That aside, my comment was made directly in relation to labels, which you should know because it was you who made it.

The reason all children cant just be label less and who they are without the trans element is because that is not possible for biological boys. FTM have that advantage there.

The odds are stacked up against any individual who doesn't believe in themselves and who they are, but turns to stereotypes and tries to change themselves, because it isn't real.

Girl isn't a feeling it's a being. A boy cannot feel like a girl, they feel like the boy they are. The stereotype of what boys is should be extended to fit them. If they want to wear a dress, paint their nails, watch Barbie they should be encouraged to follow this, but they don't need to change.

Society needs to dismantle stereotypes so all boys feel that they are appreciated as boys and girls as girls.

Sorry Purgatory, female to male, do you mean?

The reason FTM is more common in schools is ironically because it is far, far more socially acceptable. Do you really believe it's as easy for a boy to dress in female clothing in a school environment as it is for a girl?

I'd like to see the research which backs up the claim about sexual abuse.

Cross- sex identification isn't really a concept. Most people are aware you can't change sex.

I completely agree.

But a girl having short hair, wearing a hoody and a pair of jeans is very different to a boy wearing a skirt, wearing jewellery and make up and having a glittery schoolbag. Anyone who claims otherwise is being deliberately obtuse.

I don't usually compare sexuality and gender but that is also a relevant point here.

A girl playing football with the boys, wearing shorts in PE rather than leggings, wouldn't get a second glance.

A boy who hangs out with girls and wants to do dance?

I wonder if the kids would make the same comments about sexuality. Of course they wouldnt.