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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

1006 replies

GoingOnce · 28/04/2022 18:57

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

OP posts:
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OldCrone · 10/05/2022 00:51

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 00:00

A transman isn't a biological man though.

A transman, ie an 18 year old girl coming out of school (let's remember this is who I am focusing on here) would have the benefits of living as a man while also having fantastic womens' rights campaigners fighting her corner.

A trans woman , fresh out of school going to university wearing a dress and make up?

The odds are stacked.

I knew as soon as I typed that that I'd be picked up on that, but again, I'm picturing the teenage boy.

This transwoman, fresh out of school going to university wearing a dress and make up, are you thinking of someone like Lily Madigan? Lauded by the Labour Party, given a post of women's officer, Angela Rayner said she was just keeping the seat warm for Madigan in the HoC...

Have any transmen, or any women, ever had that sort of treatment?

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 00:54

OldCrone · 10/05/2022 00:51

This transwoman, fresh out of school going to university wearing a dress and make up, are you thinking of someone like Lily Madigan? Lauded by the Labour Party, given a post of women's officer, Angela Rayner said she was just keeping the seat warm for Madigan in the HoC...

Have any transmen, or any women, ever had that sort of treatment?

The 19 year old who wasn't allowed in a female toilet, was forced to wear boys uniform and called her dead name throughout school?

Barrel of laughs.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/05/2022 00:58

First of all, this is part of a thread from a detransitioning woman. I think her perspective is interesting.

extract

as for girls there’s another angle. in girls you will notice a similar phenomenon but reversed. many girls have the same extreme, hyper sexualized characature of what a “girl” or a “woman” is, and it serves as their reasoning for why they ARENT a “girl”

porn influences this both directly and indirectly. indirectly, the normalization and near universal regular consumption of on demand, online porn has desensitized the population at large to sexual content, resulting in hyper sexuality everywhere you look

on social media, it’s normal for women to farm attention and money by either presenting a highly sexualized image of themselves or actually selling pornography. everything from fashion to advertisements to selfies can be what previous generations would consider straight up porn.

in adolescent (minor) internet subcultures, it’s normal to talk about the porn you watch, what kinks you have, with people as young as 12 saying they have a daddy or a knife kink or that they’re “bottoms” or “tops”

in a lot of porn and in most of these porn inspired conversations, “submission” (and in many cases, what amounts to sexual torture in porn scenes) is a concept interchangeable with “woman”

this is completely normalized, and in so many cases actually seen as “EMPOWERING” for women, to the point where even if a young person felt uncomfortable with it all, they’re pressured and gaslit to not only repress those feelings but to participate in porn culture nonetheless

even for girls (and boys, probably) who DONT watch porn, who don’t participate in the porn culture (or if they do, just to fit in) the stuff is so pervasive that they will have seen (and felt horrified and violated by) pornographic imagery,

and been steeped in the hyper sexualized porn culture by their peers and social media.

the absolute PERCEPTION WARP this can cause in a young persons conception of sex, intimacy, men and women and their relationships, cannot be understated.

to girls who do not want to be sexual objects, who do not want to be sexually tortured, who do not want to become porn, but are gaslit into regurgitating that it’s all so cool and empowering and owning the patriarchy, the idea of being a “woman” under this conception is repulsive

many of us females grow up with and intuitive notion that when it comes to sex stuff, we’re inherently vulnerable. because we are. ideally a girl would explore sex in a safe way, with someone she trusts and who cares about her. but today, that developmental pathway is superseded

like boys, girls are often introduced to pornographic content before they even hit puberty. and all around them is a hyper sexualized porn fueled culture that is inescapable. the inherent anxieties of being a human female with vulnerability can be intolerable in these conditions

because it’s so pervasive, and because the world can now feel so unsympathetic to a young woman who is not hypersexual, some of these girls feel like there’s no way for them to be a girl. they are terrified of what the porn culture world is showing them a girl is supposed to be.

they don’t want to compete with porn for the attention of boys. they’re scared that all the boys are watching and loving this stuff that scares them so much. they feel inferior to other women who seem to be thriving in the porn culture, they feel something is wrong with them.

so they end up thinking that their short hair and white t shirt makes them not a girl

twitter thread

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 00:59

Teen years aren't a barrel of laughs for non trans girls though @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

Whether they then identify as trans or not, most will have statistically experienced sexual harassment of some sort in their teen years. A sizeable minority will have experienced sexual abuse. Hugely disproportionately considering the sexes make up approx 50:50 of the population.

Trans kids aren't the only children with difficulties and as someone who doesn't recognise privilege as a concept you shouldn't ignore the difficulties a trans boy (natal girl) will have had to tackle BEFORE identifying as a boy. A natal male won't have had that level of sex class based disadvantage before identifying as a girl.

OldCrone · 10/05/2022 01:00

A girl playing football with the boys, wearing shorts in PE rather than leggings, wouldn't get a second glance.

Some of the boys might object to a girl invading their all male space.

A boy who hangs out with girls and wants to do dance?

The girls would probably accept him (having been socialised to be kind). Some of the other boys would laugh at him and call him offensive names.

Lack of acceptance of non manly males is something men and boys do. We can't help with that. You need to talk to the men who are the problem.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 01:02

Exactly. Girls are SO much more likely to accept a trans boy in their friendship group than boys are likely to accept a trans girl in their friendship group. By far!

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 01:03

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 01:02

Exactly. Girls are SO much more likely to accept a trans boy in their friendship group than boys are likely to accept a trans girl in their friendship group. By far!

That was meant to say:

Exactly. Girls are SO much more likely to accept a trans girl in their friendship group than boys are likely to accept a trans boy in their friendship group. By far!

OldCrone · 10/05/2022 01:03

The 19 year old who wasn't allowed in a female toilet,

You missed out a word there.

The 19 year old boy who wasn't allowed in a female toilet,

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:05

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 00:59

Teen years aren't a barrel of laughs for non trans girls though @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

Whether they then identify as trans or not, most will have statistically experienced sexual harassment of some sort in their teen years. A sizeable minority will have experienced sexual abuse. Hugely disproportionately considering the sexes make up approx 50:50 of the population.

Trans kids aren't the only children with difficulties and as someone who doesn't recognise privilege as a concept you shouldn't ignore the difficulties a trans boy (natal girl) will have had to tackle BEFORE identifying as a boy. A natal male won't have had that level of sex class based disadvantage before identifying as a girl.

Ooft, I never said they were. I remember it well and I work amongst it.

My point was being Angela Rayner's poster girl will not undo the amount of damage done to Lily early on. Equally, I don't agree with Caitlyn Jenner winning Women of the year. Eliot Page has carved out a successful career as an acting man but is still getting a hammering for a relationship with a woman by the lesbian community.

My point being, everyone has their own struggles, and using people for a political agenda is all well, but ultimately nobody is any better than anybody else.

On a serious level Lyn, if you think I ignore any child with any difficulties when I've been rattling on about working with school pupils all night....course I don't. I care about, support and fight for all my pupils regardless of who they are , what they are and where they're from.

Incidentally, given that identifying usually comes mid teens, I'm not sold on a massive level of sex class disadvantage at that age - but I appreciate that will have me reaching for my helmet (or my duvet!)

Chickenyhead · 10/05/2022 01:06

Male children, boys (however they choose to identify gender wise), sexually assault female children, girls (however they choose to identify gender wise), at an astonishingly disproportionate rate.

The rate has increased significantly in recent years.

Boys are significantly stronger physically, whatever gender. This puts girls of all genders at a disadvantage.

Girls of all genders also experience menstruation. It's a big deal and it requires privacy for dignity purposes.

For ALL of these reasons, sex should determine all safeguarding situations.

Identify as whatever gender you please. Boys still have advantages determined by their biology and pose a statistically significantly higher risk of sexual assault, compared to girls.

The fact that boys who have gender identities do not benefit from women's rights, is NOT a disadvantage. Women's rights exists solely to give girls equality to the boys as they already are, whatever gender.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:06

OldCrone · 10/05/2022 01:03

The 19 year old who wasn't allowed in a female toilet,

You missed out a word there.

The 19 year old boy who wasn't allowed in a female toilet,

Child.

School child.

Not allowed to wear a skirt

Have you ever heard of a female pupil not allowed to wear trousers?

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:08

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 01:03

That was meant to say:

Exactly. Girls are SO much more likely to accept a trans girl in their friendship group than boys are likely to accept a trans boy in their friendship group. By far!

Are they? Based on?

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:10

OldCrone · 10/05/2022 01:00

A girl playing football with the boys, wearing shorts in PE rather than leggings, wouldn't get a second glance.

Some of the boys might object to a girl invading their all male space.

A boy who hangs out with girls and wants to do dance?

The girls would probably accept him (having been socialised to be kind). Some of the other boys would laugh at him and call him offensive names.

Lack of acceptance of non manly males is something men and boys do. We can't help with that. You need to talk to the men who are the problem.

"all male spaces" at secondary school? Thankfully kids are more accepting.

(having been socialised to be kind) - yet another dragged out cliche about us poor martyr women. Maybe they accept him because they like him? imagine! We aren't doing ourselves any favours painting ourselves to be poor martyr souls with no mind of our owns.

Yes, it's easy to pass the buck when you haven't got the answers.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 01:11

Incidentally, given that identifying usually comes mid teens, I'm not sold on a massive level of sex class disadvantage at that age - but I appreciate that will have me reaching for my helmet (or my duvet!)

I mean... I can't even with this.

Done.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:11

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 01:11

Incidentally, given that identifying usually comes mid teens, I'm not sold on a massive level of sex class disadvantage at that age - but I appreciate that will have me reaching for my helmet (or my duvet!)

I mean... I can't even with this.

Done.

Okaydoke.

I forgot I wasn't entitled to an opinion.

OldCrone · 10/05/2022 01:12

The reason FTM is more common in schools is ironically because it is far, far more socially acceptable. Do you really believe it's as easy for a boy to dress in female clothing in a school environment as it is for a girl?

When I was a teenager in the 70s, it was socially acceptable for girls to dress like boys. We didn't have to pretend to be boys then, or say we wanted to be boys. How did we get here? What went wrong?

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 01:12

Have you ever heard of a female pupil not allowed to wear trousers?

Yep. My all school which I left at 18 in 2005.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:13

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 01:12

Have you ever heard of a female pupil not allowed to wear trousers?

Yep. My all school which I left at 18 in 2005.

Lily was campaigning in 2016. bit of a difference (and I dont mean that rudely).

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:15

OldCrone · 10/05/2022 01:12

The reason FTM is more common in schools is ironically because it is far, far more socially acceptable. Do you really believe it's as easy for a boy to dress in female clothing in a school environment as it is for a girl?

When I was a teenager in the 70s, it was socially acceptable for girls to dress like boys. We didn't have to pretend to be boys then, or say we wanted to be boys. How did we get here? What went wrong?

Was it socially acceptable for boys to dress as girls, though?

At the risk of getting hammered, I would say that some of the movement has come from the astonishing revelation that there are boys who want to dress "like girls, if you will, that are not just doing so in order to infringe on womens' rights and get in their spaces.

I just find it mind blowing that an incredible movement like feminism can't comprehend that boys still do not have that social ability. But we can't answer that, because if i ask that, il be told its the mans' problem.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/05/2022 01:15

At what age do you think girls first experience catcalling and sexual harassment from adult men?

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:17

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/05/2022 01:15

At what age do you think girls first experience catcalling and sexual harassment from adult men?

Last time I looked, there were not adult men sitting in the classroom. And this is what I am referring directly to. The fact that girls are freer in a school socially than boys.

I'm not excusing the appalling, abhorrent treatment of girls and women. But that is not what we are discussing.

ExMachinaDeus · 10/05/2022 01:20

so I'm aware thats something I may well take for granted.

It's pretty clear you take a lot of things women have fought for in the past for granted. You might want to think about that - a lot of what women fought hard for is now under threat - our rights a very fragile.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 10/05/2022 01:21

Can I please point out that my right to wear trousers as a woman was won by women who went out there and defiantly wore trousers. It was not gently handed to my mother and grandmother, it was fought for by their generations, and it was a huge battle.

If men and boys want to wear dresses and skirts just because they find them more convenient, as women wanted to wear trousers, they should not reprove women for it. First they should tell their fathers and grandfathers off for not having had sorted that, and second, then just get themselves down to the tailors and have some dress fittings.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:22

ExMachinaDeus · 10/05/2022 01:20

so I'm aware thats something I may well take for granted.

It's pretty clear you take a lot of things women have fought for in the past for granted. You might want to think about that - a lot of what women fought hard for is now under threat - our rights a very fragile.

What do i take for granted?

OldCrone · 10/05/2022 01:23

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 01:10

"all male spaces" at secondary school? Thankfully kids are more accepting.

(having been socialised to be kind) - yet another dragged out cliche about us poor martyr women. Maybe they accept him because they like him? imagine! We aren't doing ourselves any favours painting ourselves to be poor martyr souls with no mind of our owns.

Yes, it's easy to pass the buck when you haven't got the answers.

I was going to add something about some girls possibly just liking a gentle, feminine boy, but decided to be concise.

My point was that boys aren't always accepting of girls, or of boys who are a bit feminine. Girls are more likely to be accepting.

What's your suggestion for getting boys and men to be more accepting of more feminine men? I assume you have some answers since you've criticised me for not having all the answers.

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