Page 26 | Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

GoingOnce · 2022-04-28T17:57:00+00:00

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them. The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them). Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 09/05/2022 23:48

youvegottenminuteslynn · 09/05/2022 23:35

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

we dont fight mens' fights because they're men. but we will battle tooth and nail for all women, regardless of whether they;re good people or not. But if they're a man, we won't.

Not at the expense of women, no.

Respectfully, with the privilege issue and seemingly not understanding why women who are murdered by men at a rate of two a week in the UK alone, more likely to be victims of sexual assault by men, more likely to be victims of harassment by men, more likely to be paid less than men, more likely to be victims of sexual harassment by men are prioritising women as a sex class over men as a sex class... I give up.

Know this - we are the women who will fight tooth and nail for you if you should ever need us. We are the women who fight to gain and maintain your rights. We are the women who are determined to keep you safe. As sex class, women are your protectors and men (not all men but many men) are your oppressors. We won't ever stop protecting other women even if they keep telling us men have it harder or don't have the level of privilege in comparison to women, when all else is equal, that is patently obvious.

All the best.

Woah hang on, talk about a strawman.

I couldn't agree more with everything you've just said.

I never said men (biological men) had it harder. I said that out of the two, in the trans issue of children, it is easier for a girl identifying as a boy than a boy as a girl. they're not men. they're children.

I agree with every word of the rest of your post, as I have the rest of them.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 09/05/2022 23:50

Chickenyhead · 09/05/2022 23:39

Women are discriminated against based upon biological reality, not feelings. Hence women's rights seek to equalise the sexes, to compensate for those biological differences.

A man doesn't biologically become a woman and hence become entitled to women's biological rights.

My daughter is an autistic lesbian, who is being told by a homophobic society, that she must be a man. She isn't a man. She is a perfectly healthy, autistic, lesbian woman. It isn't her that need to change, it is a society that categorises people according to stereotypes.

Being a woman is a straightforward biological fact.

Being a transwoman is an identity some biological men identify with.

Neither is lesser. Neither is in competition. They are entirely different things, entitled to entirely different protections.

I don't believe anyone becomes a biological other sex (without transition, which is a total other argument).

Ive heard this a lot with lesbians, and I think that's really unfair (in the same way I don't like the 'female' connections with gay men.

Sexuality and gender have no connection.

OldCrone · 09/05/2022 23:53

So, by this argument, we dont fight mens' fights because they're men. but we will battle tooth and nail for all women, regardless of whether they;re good people or not. But if they're a man, we won't.

Nobody's saying that we shouldn't care about men, but feminism is about women and girls.

As you have observed, most of the children identifying as trans are girls. So most of the parents here looking for support have daughters who identify as trans. The 'trans child' in the OP is a girl. You wanting to divert discussion to the much smaller number of boys who identify as trans because you think it's harder for them appeared to be a 'what about the men' comment.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 09/05/2022 23:54

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

I never said men (biological men) had it harder. I said that out of the two, in the trans issue of children, it is easier for a girl identifying as a boy than a boy as a girl. they're not men. they're children.

Nope, that's not true I'm afraid. See below - you specifically said a transman (you made clear you meant an adult) would have all the benefits of living as a man while benefiting from women's rights, while a trans woman (again, adult) would have 'the fight of his life'.

Not to nitpick but you misgendered the latter
going by your own beliefs re pronouns.

A transman would effectively then live as a man, with all of the perceived benefits of that, while being support by womens' rights.

A transwoman has the fight of his life

PrelateChuckles · 09/05/2022 23:54

The idea that you had a 'privilege' because you werent something else to me is utterly absurd.

I can't get my head around this.
You're not at an advantage if you are able-bodied compared to an "equivalent" disabled person? And you think this because you have a friend, who, like every other person on the planet, isn't "defined" by one aspect of her?

Lynn wrote a good explanation of privilege. I don't believe anyone who's thought about it for more than 10 minutes can still maintain it means "you have a great life". It's not meant to be a great picture of anyone's life, or reverse snobbery, or anything like that. It's simply a recognition that on any given axis (sex, race, ability) others at different places on the axis are more likely to have experienced disadvantages (or advantages) that you haven't.

Anyway. It's late and it's gone very far off the OP's topic.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 09/05/2022 23:58

PrelateChuckles · 09/05/2022 23:54

The idea that you had a 'privilege' because you werent something else to me is utterly absurd.

I can't get my head around this.
You're not at an advantage if you are able-bodied compared to an "equivalent" disabled person? And you think this because you have a friend, who, like every other person on the planet, isn't "defined" by one aspect of her?

Lynn wrote a good explanation of privilege. I don't believe anyone who's thought about it for more than 10 minutes can still maintain it means "you have a great life". It's not meant to be a great picture of anyone's life, or reverse snobbery, or anything like that. It's simply a recognition that on any given axis (sex, race, ability) others at different places on the axis are more likely to have experienced disadvantages (or advantages) that you haven't.

Anyway. It's late and it's gone very far off the OP's topic.

If you look above you will see I ground the chat about adults in its tracks and referred back to children and it was picked up again.

Able and disability isn't a comparison though, is it? Because it's a physical fact.

I think this because I'm a care experienced child, and I was using my friend as a comparison, which is exactly what I said in my post.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 09/05/2022 23:59

"Having white privilege doesn't mean that your life isn't difficult; it simply means that your skin color isn't one of the things contributing to your life difficulties."

I don't know how anyone can disagree with this explanation of white privilege as it's an absolutely factual statement. It baffles me.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 00:00

youvegottenminuteslynn · 09/05/2022 23:54

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

I never said men (biological men) had it harder. I said that out of the two, in the trans issue of children, it is easier for a girl identifying as a boy than a boy as a girl. they're not men. they're children.

Nope, that's not true I'm afraid. See below - you specifically said a transman (you made clear you meant an adult) would have all the benefits of living as a man while benefiting from women's rights, while a trans woman (again, adult) would have 'the fight of his life'.

Not to nitpick but you misgendered the latter
going by your own beliefs re pronouns.

A transman would effectively then live as a man, with all of the perceived benefits of that, while being support by womens' rights.

A transwoman has the fight of his life

A transman isn't a biological man though.

A transman, ie an 18 year old girl coming out of school (let's remember this is who I am focusing on here) would have the benefits of living as a man while also having fantastic womens' rights campaigners fighting her corner.

A trans woman , fresh out of school going to university wearing a dress and make up?

The odds are stacked.

I knew as soon as I typed that that I'd be picked up on that, but again, I'm picturing the teenage boy.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 00:00

Able and disability isn't a comparison though, is it? Because it's a physical fact.

Someone's race is literally a physical fact!

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 00:04

youvegottenminuteslynn · 09/05/2022 23:59

"Having white privilege doesn't mean that your life isn't difficult; it simply means that your skin color isn't one of the things contributing to your life difficulties."

I don't know how anyone can disagree with this explanation of white privilege as it's an absolutely factual statement. It baffles me.

It's a factual statement, but I don't agree with the term 'privilege' s a principle. (and I say that from someone from a mixed race family). I just don't like the term privilege for anything - (I would separate the able/disabled from that, because that's a physical fact). That's just me though, and I'm just a human with an opinion. I never claimed to be the world leader of social concepts. As you might have worked out by now, I'm not a fan of divisive concepts.

It is a factual statement that someone white will not face the barriers someone black will, but "privilege" suggests better than, better off than.

There are many more factors in life than sex, gender and race, and every one of us can end up on our arse.

I don't like 'one size fits all' statements. I don't think that makes me the worst guy ever, it's just my opinion!

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 00:04

A transman, ie an 18 year old girl coming out of school (let's remember this is who I am focusing on here) would have the benefits of living as a man while also having fantastic womens' rights campaigners fighting her corner.

As explained, an 18 year old transman may effectively 'live as a man' in your words (whatever that looks like to you) but won't have had the benefits of growing up male - the physical benefits when it comes to strength, lung capacity, muscle mass etc, or the social benefits when it comes to growing up with a sense of entitlement and not having to fear people sexually overpowering you etc. Still at risk of all the vulnerabilities of any other natal female. Hence why it's important she has women's rights.

And you referred to a trans woman as 'he' FYI.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 00:04

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 00:00

Able and disability isn't a comparison though, is it? Because it's a physical fact.

Someone's race is literally a physical fact!

Yes, but a black teenager facing disadvantages COULD go on and be a hollywood millionaire, despite the odds being stacked.

Someone who is disabled could never go on and win a marathon or be a footballer.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 00:06

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 00:04

A transman, ie an 18 year old girl coming out of school (let's remember this is who I am focusing on here) would have the benefits of living as a man while also having fantastic womens' rights campaigners fighting her corner.

As explained, an 18 year old transman may effectively 'live as a man' in your words (whatever that looks like to you) but won't have had the benefits of growing up male - the physical benefits when it comes to strength, lung capacity, muscle mass etc, or the social benefits when it comes to growing up with a sense of entitlement and not having to fear people sexually overpowering you etc. Still at risk of all the vulnerabilities of any other natal female. Hence why it's important she has women's rights.

And you referred to a trans woman as 'he' FYI.

thats twice youve said that, lynn, I explaned my reasoning for that in the very post you're responding to.

The post you've just sent is a copy and paste job from further up when we had the conversation.

I'm confused by the turn.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 00:07

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

Not the worst guy in the world, no. Of course I don't think you're anywhere near the 'worst' if anything! I didn't think you were a guy either, but are you?

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 00:07

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 00:04

A transman, ie an 18 year old girl coming out of school (let's remember this is who I am focusing on here) would have the benefits of living as a man while also having fantastic womens' rights campaigners fighting her corner.

As explained, an 18 year old transman may effectively 'live as a man' in your words (whatever that looks like to you) but won't have had the benefits of growing up male - the physical benefits when it comes to strength, lung capacity, muscle mass etc, or the social benefits when it comes to growing up with a sense of entitlement and not having to fear people sexually overpowering you etc. Still at risk of all the vulnerabilities of any other natal female. Hence why it's important she has women's rights.

And you referred to a trans woman as 'he' FYI.

I also never said she shouldn't have womens' rights. That would be an odd stance for me to take given me bleating on about trans children all night. I simply expressed an opinion that a trans F-M at school age stands better odds than a M-F (and also discussed quite reasonably that I think the behaviour of transwomen in America and the awful cases we hear can colour our view of younger trans children). I didn't realise that was such an outrageous thing to say.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 00:08

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

To be clear I wasn't copying and pasting for any other reason than I assumed you missed my explanation of why I felt how I did about your statement as I assumed you missed it. No malice intended there at all.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 00:09

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 00:07

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

Not the worst guy in the world, no. Of course I don't think you're anywhere near the 'worst' if anything! I didn't think you were a guy either, but are you?

No.
I call my own girl friends "lads" or "troops" - it's a Scottish thing.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 00:10

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 00:08

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

To be clear I wasn't copying and pasting for any other reason than I assumed you missed my explanation of why I felt how I did about your statement as I assumed you missed it. No malice intended there at all.

Well, that along with the "fyi - you misgendered" for the second time - one can only assume there's a tone.

Leaving it here for the night - the dreaded 630 alarm calls.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 00:12

OldCrone · 09/05/2022 23:53

So, by this argument, we dont fight mens' fights because they're men. but we will battle tooth and nail for all women, regardless of whether they;re good people or not. But if they're a man, we won't.

Nobody's saying that we shouldn't care about men, but feminism is about women and girls.

As you have observed, most of the children identifying as trans are girls. So most of the parents here looking for support have daughters who identify as trans. The 'trans child' in the OP is a girl. You wanting to divert discussion to the much smaller number of boys who identify as trans because you think it's harder for them appeared to be a 'what about the men' comment.

Sorry, I missed this

Sorry, the "trans child" in the OP is a boy.

No, I diverted discussion because a PP started talking about the overwhelming number of transwomen and the affect that has on womens' rights.

I haven't what about the menned once.

I've what about the children, absolutely.

PrelateChuckles · 10/05/2022 00:12

If you look above you will see I ground the chat about adults in its tracks and referred back to children and it was picked up again.

Able and disability isn't a comparison though, is it? Because it's a physical fact.

It is probably me being dense but I don't understand this post... sorry!

Yes, but a black teenager facing disadvantages COULD go on and be a hollywood millionaire, despite the odds being stacked.

Someone who is disabled could never go on and win a marathon or be a footballer.

What has that got to do with privilege? Why is one trying to be a millionaire and one trying to win at sports? I am so lost.
You've literally said "despite the odds being stacked". That's what privilege is!!

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 00:16

@OldCrone i will ask you what I've asked others.

As a woman with female friends, female nieces, female relatives - why do you think I would "what about" when we are all at risk?

I've acknowledged several times in this thread that I'm on board with separate spaces, dont agree with mixed prisons, etc etc.

So just because I care about my boy pupils as much as my female pupils its "what about the men?"

No. Its what about ALL pupils.

The diversion to men started because I identified that the barrier to gender just being "label less" is not girls - girls have it much easier in that department. Its boys. Boys have the odds stacked against them (I'd say men, because to me 17 year olds are men, but I don't want to be misunderstood again).

When it comes to trans, despite all the concerns (which incidentally as I asked earlier, do they come from the abhorrent stories about adult men - given that I've already agreed i don't agree with mixed changing) the biggest barrier to gender being label less and childhood trans is not our view of girls. It's our view of boys. If a girl came to school with short hair, baggy jeans and a shirt, no one would bat an eyelid. If a boy came to school in a skirt and make up....?

My point being, we are passing on our concerns and anger (rightful anger) about adult men onto young boys. And that ultimately has a waterfall effect on all children, trans or otherwise.

stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou · 10/05/2022 00:17

PrelateChuckles · 10/05/2022 00:12

If you look above you will see I ground the chat about adults in its tracks and referred back to children and it was picked up again.

Able and disability isn't a comparison though, is it? Because it's a physical fact.

It is probably me being dense but I don't understand this post... sorry!

Yes, but a black teenager facing disadvantages COULD go on and be a hollywood millionaire, despite the odds being stacked.

Someone who is disabled could never go on and win a marathon or be a footballer.

What has that got to do with privilege? Why is one trying to be a millionaire and one trying to win at sports? I am so lost.
You've literally said "despite the odds being stacked". That's what privilege is!!

One is possible. The other isn't.

You can't compare able bodied privilege to race or gender privilege because one is physically possible and one isn't.

We have completely diverted here though and won't agree.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 00:22

When it comes to trans, despite all the concerns (which incidentally as I asked earlier, do they come from the abhorrent stories about adult men - given that I've already agreed i don't agree with mixed changing) the biggest barrier to gender being label less and childhood trans is not our view of girls. It's our view of boys. If a girl came to school with short hair, baggy jeans and a shirt, no one would bat an eyelid. If a boy came to school in a skirt and make up....?

Boys aren't binding their breasts and causing permanent damage. For example.

PrelateChuckles · 10/05/2022 00:24

It is a factual statement that someone white will not face the barriers someone black will, but "privilege" suggests better than, better off than.

It might suggest that if you refuse to accept what people tell you they mean by it, yes.

There are many more factors in life than sex, gender and race, and every one of us can end up on our arse.
Correct, but that's got nothing to do with privilege.

If you still completely reject privilege as a concept you are in danger of sounding like you think X group of people are where they are because of something innate to them, not because they are disadvantaged in a society that discriminates on numerous levels by Y.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 10/05/2022 00:25

Yes, but a black teenager facing disadvantages COULD go on and be a hollywood millionaire, despite the odds being stacked.

The odds are stacked for them more than a white person, when all else is equal.

Because privilege.

A disadvantaged white youth is not privileged in the traditional sense of the word.

But they have white privilege in that of every hardship they face, their race isn't one of them.