Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

That is unfair

Are you honestly telling me that you think a transwomen child (14, 15) who wants to start wearing make up and dresses receives the same understanding and support from peers as a female child who is identifying as a boy?

Young transwomen (children) aren't trying to "muscle in", either.

Thankfully, OP is referring to children, so we don't need to worry about that wider debate. I feel like I've opened a can of worms, but my point was only ever to highlight from previous discussion that the barrier to gender being label less actually isn't from a female perspective, it's from a male. So until we can accept that boys may want to identify as a female (and I'm talking boys, not men) for similar reason to young females, those labels will stay. Girls wanting to be boys will be treated as GD or having some kind of mental illness or the victim of misogyny, and boys will be viewed with suspicion, whereas ultimately, young boys and girls are not responsible for the actions of their older counterparts.

Yet the threads regarding the fear for women's safety - changing rooms, toilets, prisons (which I;ve already said I am on board with) dominate each trans topic, despite the fact the majority of young trans people are transmen.

And the majority of older ones are male. These are the ones who could be a danger to women and children. Not because they are trans but because they are male. In general, children identifying as trans are not a danger to anyone. Teenage boys might be, for the same reason as men are. Girls who identify as trans are not a danger to anyone (except possibly themselves).

Would you consider a young transman to have woman's rights?

Of course. Transmen are female. Women's rights are for all women, even those who don't want to be women.

Thankfully, OP is referring to children, so we don't need to worry about that wider debate.

Children grow into adults and so the issues being spoken about now are a natural, organic development in the discussion.

Totally agree.

On all counts - except (sorry, I know posters will be rolling their eyes)

A transman would effectively then live as a man, with all of the perceived benefits of that, while being support by womens' rights.

A transwoman has the fight of his life.

Transition is very rare though, so its unlikely.

Incidentally I know 2 trans adults - both transmen, and both married to women with children.

Yes, of course.

A female is going to need healthcare specific to sex, etc. A transman may not wish to avail themselves of those rights; that's up to them. They will retain the protections afforded to them according to their sex, as laid out in the Equality Act.

For all that we might have disagreed, DZ, and Old Crone, I think your commitment to womens rights even when they make choices you dont necessarily agree with/understand is really worthy of respect. I mean that genuinely.

I'm a generation that grew up quite luckily with womens' rights (ie, i dont remember the fight for shelters that people speak of, or the vote) so I'm aware thats something I may well take for granted.

A transman would effectively then live as a man, with all of the perceived benefits of that, while being support by womens' rights.

Women's rights aren't a bonus that women get over and above what men get though, are they? Can you name some rights that women have that men don't also have legally?

And a transman may effectively 'live as a man' in your words (whatever that looks like to you) but won't have had the benefits of growing up male - the physical benefits when it comes to strength, lung capacity, muscle mass etc, or the social benefits when it comes to growing up with a sense of entitlement and not having to fear people sexually overpowering you etc.

You're trying to make two things equal experiences when they're just too different.

A transman would effectively then live as a man, with all of the perceived benefits of that, while being support by womens' rights.

How does someone female 'live as a man'?

A transwoman has the fight of his life.

This is a feminist board. 'What about the men?' generally doesn't go down well here.

(ie, i dont remember the fight for shelters that people speak of, or the vote)

Yeah, I'm not that old. Women got the vote in 1928.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

Transition is very rare though, so its unlikely.

This is another interesting topic isn't it? How it's so vital to buy into gender identity but then it's 'very rare' for children who identify as another gender to actually transition.

Because adopting (usually outdated and archaic) social stereotypes of the opposite sex was enough for them to feel comfortable and happier.

Another reason that you should consider whether a healthier approach would be to focus on empowering young people to embrace all of themselves, whether the things that make them them are traditionally categories as 'boy' things or 'girl' things, leaving the vast majority of them to simply be themselves and be individuals without the need to label or identify out of your sex.

I'm not necessarily trying to make them equal. But I think young transwomen have a harder fight on their hands than transmen.

I'm not a fan of the umbrella term of entitlement. During BLM, when everyone spoke of 'privilege', I wasn't a fan of that term either.

I'm a child from care who statistically fought the odds to get where I am. I had about as much say in my background as I did my gender or my race. If I was a male, people would assume that as a middle aged white man I was having a whale of a time. I don't think anyone else can speak of entitlement for other people, but I appreciate that's controversial.

Men can be feminists.

Equally, a transwoman wants to be a woman. If this is done in good faith, are we rejecting them based on their anatomy?

I'd take a good faith transwoman over an evil woman in our society, would you not?

Your 'gender' can be whatever you want it to be. Gender is genuinely a spectrum, malleable and choosable.

No, I know, but my older relatives still speak of how lucky we are to have that. What I meant by that was that I'm in a generation that was lucky enough to not see some of the campaigns that my parents talk of.

This is partly the nub.

Accepting, listening and supporting sometimes is enough for a u turn.

If this was any other issue, anyone advising someone to challenge a teenager on their views would be encouraged to let them figure it out on their own - safe sex, alcohol,e tc etc.

Again, I agree Lynn. But not everyone has the same....insight?

Equally, a transwoman wants to be a woman. If this is done in good faith, are we rejecting them based on their anatomy?

Males are male. A male can't be a woman, it doesn't matter a fig whether anyone 'accepts' or 'rejects' them. It's simple reality.

I'm not a fan of the umbrella term of entitlement. During BLM, when everyone spoke of 'privilege', I wasn't a fan of that term either.

I'm a child from care who statistically fought the odds to get where I am. I had about as much say in my background as I did my gender or my race. If I was a male, people would assume that as a middle aged white man I was having a whale of a time. I don't think anyone else can speak of entitlement for other people, but I appreciate that's controversial.

I was fostered then adopted. Grew up poor. Considerable trauma at various points. Socially disadvantaged but still had white privilege.

Because the term doesn't mean someone is 'privileged' it simply means that when all else is equal, whatever else they have to worry about (which may be loads of things), their race isn't one of those things.

My life was tough. It would have been even tougher in different ways if all else was equal and I had also been black. Less likely statistically to have been adopted, less likely statistically to have been believed when I reported things, plus racist comments in general.

That doesn't negate my struggles or minimise them, because I don't make the term all about MY struggles or see it as an attack on me.

It's an acknowledgment that race simply wasn't one of the things I had to worry about.

Okay. So we fight for peoples rights based on their anatomy, because effectively thats what we are doing, and in doing so alienate a great number of people. I can't see the logic in that.

I'd take a good faith transwoman over an evil woman in our society, would you not?

Who has said anything to suggest they'd prefer an evil woman to exist than a trans woman?! Where has that come from? The straw (transwo)manning is so counter productive.

It's not that I see it about ME or an attack on me - it was just a point.

It's more that I am aware that people are very keen to comment on the lives of other people.

BLM was everywhere a couple years ago, now LGBT is the focus.

My black, female friend has a life far better than I could ever achieve. Neither her race nor her gender define her. She herself struggles with the word privilege. Some call it "whataboutery", but it isn't.

We spend a lot of time deciding what other people have to deal with, and I struggle with that concept. The idea that you had a 'privilege' because you werent something else to me is utterly absurd.

Everyone of us has our battles.

As I said earlier, boys wanting to transition to girls have the odds stacked against them far more than girls to boys. I appreciate that on a feminist board that's not your main concern. But taking a term 'privilege' and applying it to everyone of a sex or race or background is narrow minded. In my view.

Not to exist. But in my corner, if you will.

This response was from this interaction

A transwoman has the fight of his life.

This is a feminist board. 'What about the men?' generally doesn't go down well here.

So, by this argument, we dont fight mens' fights because they're men. but we will battle tooth and nail for all women, regardless of whether they;re good people or not. But if they're a man, we won't.

Hence my point.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

we dont fight mens' fights because they're men. but we will battle tooth and nail for all women, regardless of whether they;re good people or not. But if they're a man, we won't.

Not at the expense of women, no.

Respectfully, with the privilege issue and seemingly not understanding why women who are murdered by men at a rate of two a week in the UK alone, more likely to be victims of sexual assault by men, more likely to be victims of harassment by men, more likely to be paid less than men, more likely to be victims of sexual harassment by men are prioritising women as a sex class over men as a sex class... I give up.

Know this - we are the women who will fight tooth and nail for you if you should ever need us. We are the women who fight to gain and maintain your rights. We are the women who are determined to keep you safe. As sex class, women are your protectors and men (not all men but many men) are your oppressors. We won't ever stop protecting other women even if they keep telling us men have it harder or don't have the level of privilege in comparison to women, when all else is equal, that is patently obvious.

All the best.

Women are discriminated against based upon biological reality, not feelings. Hence women's rights seek to equalise the sexes, to compensate for those biological differences.

A man doesn't biologically become a woman and hence become entitled to women's biological rights.

My daughter is an autistic lesbian, who is being told by a homophobic society, that she must be a man. She isn't a man. She is a perfectly healthy, autistic, lesbian woman. It isn't her that need to change, it is a society that categorises people according to stereotypes.

Being a woman is a straightforward biological fact.

Being a transwoman is an identity some biological men identify with.

Neither is lesser. Neither is in competition. They are entirely different things, entitled to entirely different protections.