Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

I don't expect this story to stop children feeling or expressing their distress.

I do expect people to turn their brains on and realise that some adults' choices to prioritise demonstrating that they saw this child as a boy led to more abuse. An abused child paid for the adults' virtue signalling with their own body.

This child should have been given a private room straight away. As late as 15 years ago, trans acceptance would have meant giving this female child a private room in order to keep them safe while respecting their identity and privacy.

Now it means simultaneously claiming that a boys' unit and boys' communal showers and so on are too dangerous for male children who identify as trans or non-binary, and yet perfectly safe for female children who identify as trans because "they're boys". It is not how it works. It has never been how it works, which is why corrective rape of female people (lesbians and transmen) is something that some men commit.

It needs to stop. Female children with gender dysphoria are just as worthy of protection as any other child, and that is not how they are being treated.

People can be transgender without GD and vice verse.

I would consider trans gender an action as opposed to gender dysphoria. Actively moving to the gender you would prefer to be, as opposed to dysphoria.

I can understand how people might have gender dysphoria but not be trans. But I don't understand what trans is without gender dysphoria (unless it's things like crossdressing/transvestism, which is under the stonewall trans umbrella).

If you don't have gender dysphoria, why would you need to 'move to the gender you would prefer to be'? Why not just be yourself? I'm not sure I even understand what 'moving to the gender you would prefer to be' means. If it's just about gender stereotypes like clothing and interests, why does it even need a label? You surely wouldn't become a lifelong medical patient reliant on artificial hormones and undergoing major surgery if you didn't have gender dysphoria would you?

I don't think so, or I hope not. I would like to think by now that gender and sex are separate enough - (although don't get me started on 'gender reveals').

Re your second part, they believe gender is a spectrum, but i dont think they believe the other. Transition is very, very rare, and again I can only speak for me, but its not something we see a lot of, especially as non binary takes off.

To try and get somehow connected with the OP, I think it is other people who make it a bigger deal. a 12 year old does not need the ins and outs of the types of things we are discussing.

If the neighbour's child wants to call himself James, wear trousers and a hoody and considers himself a boy, is that really so traumatising for this child to comprehend? Children are very, very accepting.

Someone I know once invited children in the class to quite an active party we were having. A child turned up with quite a significant disability, making access difficult.

They asked their child why they had mentioned it and the child's response was pretty much, "why would I?"

In life, we meet all sorts of different people. I can totally understand the worry with your own child, and your story has really touched me rod. Not having your wishes honoured is outrageous.

But if a parent chooses to let it ride its course, as I have seen it happen, and let the child figure it out, does it really have to be a big discussion in every household in the neighbourhood? Or is that us putting our opinions into things that really don't concern us? And no, I don't think it concerns the OP what another families' child is doing.

I don't agree with the stonewall umbrella per se, so I'm maybe not the best to ask.

Transition is rare. but in answer to your question, yes. In the same way people have all sorts of cosmetic surgery without having diagnosed GD. In answer to "the moving", I am fortunate enough it's not something i get either, because I just am who I am, wear what I want, and thankfully nobody else is in the least bit interested.

But for these people, its important, and I think we need to respect that. I don't think its a case that everyone thinks they most "swallow the lie" because of the mental health statistics, but theyre certainly a factor.

Why would I make life more difficult for someone whos outcome I can't ultimately change anyway? If young Rebecca wants to be Robert and her parents are OK with it and she is being supported, if I huff and puff and tell her its not possible will she have an epiphany and change her mind? No. Of course she won't. Teenagers are difficult enough to advise that we as adults know anything at the best of times, let alone people with all of that going on in her head.

If the neighbour's child wants to call himself James, wear trousers and a hoody and considers himself a boy, is that really so traumatising for this child to comprehend? Children are very, very accepting.

But this also feeds into yet another generation of girls being told they aren't 'girl' enough if they want to wear 'boy' clothes for example.

That there's something wrong with them that needs fixing or rebranding instead of just being part of who they are.

Instead of the aim being that it's acceptable for girls to wear 'boy' clothes shouldn't the aim be that it's ridiculous jeans and hoodies or short hair or football etc etc are so gendered in 2022 that they're considered 'boy' things that girls need to identify into rather than just do / have.

I dont disagree about the rooms, or prisons, or toilets.

However, they didnt see them as a boy. They accepted that he saw himself as a boy.

And as i said earlier, its one story from America which doesnt counteract everything else.

Yes, but theyre in a school.

If anything the odds are against the boys - I wear a jumper and skinny jeans to work some days but my male colleague couldn't rock up in a skirt.

But if gender stereotypes and gender pigeonholes were discouraged then anyone could wear what they want without needing to label themselves or rebrand themselves! Shouldn't that be the goal rather than reinforcing gender stereotypes and the arbitrary rules that are based on them?

It's not a one-off though, is it? We have has threads on here with the same situation of female children being placed with male children on school trips to affirm their identities (one situation in the UK is alleged to ended in the female teen being raped) and pages of MNers claiming that it is transphobic to give a private room to a female child who doesn't want to be placed with the other female children. Some of the MNers in favour claim to be teachers. I hope to god they're not.

A female child may see themselves as a boy, but this does not mean they should have sleeping arrangements that put them with the boys, even if that's what they ask for. Teenagers don't assess risk well. If it was up to children and teens, most of them wouldn't wear seatbelts on school trips, either. I don't trust a 12 year old's judgement on that, so I wouldn't trust their judgement on what risk of sexual violence their male peers pose.

I would be on board with private rooms.

You make a good point re their assessment of judgement.

We are focusing a lot though on transmen which is good - the age old arguments about transwomen in toilets and prisons being brought into these arguments isn't fair game because we know the majority of transgender pupils are transmen.

However, as I said earlier - I understand the fear around sexual violence, but part of my issue with that is that it;s always the ultimate debate, isnt it - rape and sexual violence are so abhorrent that when they're in the picture people will always react stronger.

The reality is that a transwoman (child) would face far more stigma, abuse and difficulty than a transman (child). So if we have concerns about trans, we need to move away from the females and look at the issues for the boys.

I don't disagree, but I think women have far more advantage on that front, if I'm honest. Appearance wise, we can be label-less. I can go out with no make up, hair in a bun, wearing my boyfriend's trackies.

Men face way more barriers.

Back in my day (which was not that long ago!) all the trans friends I had, whether born male or female, said that overnight school trips had been nightmares because they didn't want anyone else seeing their bodies. Not people of their own sex, and not people of the sex they wished to live as. As young adults, the male ones said they didn't want to remind girls of their male bodies, because it made it harder for their female peers to perceive them as girls. The female ones recollected wanting to feel able to take off their binders without an audience overnight. They all wished they'd been entitled to request private rooms.

But at some point, it became the party line that placing kids with the sex they identified with was the trans-friendly thing to do. I don't understand why.

I don't disagree, but I think women have far more advantage on that front, if I'm honest. Appearance wise, we can be label-less. I can go out with no make up, hair in a bun, wearing my boyfriend's trackies. Men face way more barriers.

...I haven't said otherwise at any point. You seem so keen to argue you add a 'but' and then a new argument after you agree with people!

And if men want to fight for changes, they're very welcome to. They have ample resources and opportunity as a sex class to change things systemically in comparison to women. But that's a whole other topic.

Maybe I'm just tired and grumpy but I think I've used up all my sensible typing for the day.

Oh and @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou you do know you can buy trackies too, you don't have to wear someone else's just because you're a woman!

No no, not an argument! I agree with you.

What i mean is, the adult hot topic on Mn is transwomen, rightly so. It was more a reference to Crone (i think)s post about trans pupils in rooms. If anything it was more just to make the point that the majority are transmen, and that boys have as much stigma as us in that regard. Maybe it was clumsily worded but it was meant to agree with you that actually label less would be easier.

I don't blame you given that youce spent most of that typing winding my neck in!

Ironically, i dont like womens tracksuit bottoms.

I wear mens boxers and tracksuits cause i like the fit
😂

Fear of bigotry.

Which is silly really.

I remember as a teen being desperate to get changed alone cause i hated the idea we should all be fine to just get.changed together.

What i mean is, the adult hot topic on Mn is transwomen, rightly so.

The 'adult hot topic' on here is women, and women's rights.

And if men want to fight for changes, they're very welcome to. They have ample resources and opportunity as a sex class to change things systemically in comparison to women

This. But somehow, it's the women ho are expected to do the work.

I remember when feminists campaigning for, raising money for, and setting up things like rape crisis groups and women's shelters, were criticised, excoriated & abused - for daring to speak out about male violence.

Now the same women are expected to campaign for, raise money for, and set up services for the same sex class that ridiculed them for doing tis 30 or 40 years ago.

Yes, lots of men indignant that women have shelters and there is less provision for men. As if they all just fell out of the sky. The Great Invisible Mother provides.

Yet the threads regarding the fear for women's safety - changing rooms, toilets, prisons (which I;ve already said I am on board with) dominate each trans topic, despite the fact the majority of young trans people are transmen.

Which always fascinates me.

Would you consider a young transman to have woman's rights?

Genuine question, btw.

Didnt mean that offensively at all, DZ. I've said numerous times I'm on board in terms of the arguments about prisons and separate spaces.

But I do wonder if that colours people's views of trans children, or increases the fear. When in fact young transwomen (ie school age) is staggeringly rare, because school boys face more of a stigma than girls.

But young transmen aren't trying to muscle in on women's sex-based rights, as transwomen are. Transwomen have all the privilege of being socialised as boys & men; and part of that privilege is that they just don't realise how selfish and misogynist they're being in all the TWAW ideology.

Would you consider a young transman to have woman's rights?

Absolutely. A transman is still at risk of the same sex based violence as any other natal women. Their rights as biological women are therefore very specific to their sex.

Women aren't raped and murdered because they identify as female. They're raped and murdered because they are biologically female.

No doubt someone would call me a transphobe for wanting to protect transmen from the innate risks of being a biological women though!