Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

Rufus has popped up numerous times now to do the same thing, if you read back through the thread.

Ive ignored several, several snarky posts aimed at me, Rufus included. Every so often I am surely allowed to address it.

On a side note, i like merailing as a word. I am having that.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

Please try to take on board how your tone is coming across to people - it's not just me, it's clearly coming across the same to others too.
It's got a sarcy, snarky vibe and sounds flippantly dismissive of differing viewpoints. I don't think you mean to come across that way, I think it is a default defence mechanism that you keep going to without meaning to. But it's frustrating and unproductive to keep being on the receiving end of.

With the greatest of respect DZ, you have been one of the posters doing the type of behaviour im talking about and ive ignored several deliberate incendiary posts from you to other posters aimed at me.

The sentence about the thread being about me is pathetic. It wasnt aimed at you, it wasnt to you, so there is no need for you to comment (again) and therefore do the exact same thing you are accusing me of.

I honestly dont mean to be dismissive of a different viewpoint.

The snark and sarcasm given to posters is a result of their behaviour towards me. Not one of them has given me any leeway in this thread and pops up every so ofte , which is also not the nicest to be on the end of.

Thanks for that extremely helpful reply.

I've been reading and posting on here for about 6 years, and my understanding is that a person is trans if they suffer from gender dysphoria.

Of course there is also the all-encompassing Stonewall trans umbrella, under which we also have people such as crossdressers who obviously don't suffer from gender dysphoria. There is also the condition starting with 'A' which we are not allowed to mention, where 'gender euphoria' is more common than gender dysphoria, although in this article it is included as a type of gender dysphoria.
But crossdressing and the A-word are normally associated with adults, not children.

When discussing children I had always assumed that they are gender dysphoric, rather than indulging a hobby or sexual fetish. Are you saying I'm wrong and some of these children are just crossdressers?

a quick research will do that for you. they are two completely separate concepts.

Perhaps you would be good enough to give us the low down on these two completely separate concepts as you seem to be knowledgeable.

I’ve read every single post on here

sometimes I comment and some times I don’t, and sometimes im in the mood to stay on a thread for a bit

there’s not much i can do about that

Although, apologies

im in danger of making this part of the thread all about me so I’ll stop 😊

but I’ll continue to comment moving forward

@OldCrone i generally dont know what word you mean....are you allowed to say it on tne basis of this interaction?

As posters have pointed out there i was a cow there to you. I didnt mean to be. I didnt read it as a genuine question, and I get really annoyed at the GD thing because to me its an attempt to explain away trans.

GD is distress or discomfort surrounding their gender assigned and gender identity. Simply put, inside and outside. This is a psychologically diagnosed condition.

The difference is, GD doesnt cause transgender. There are many people who live with GD without identifying as transgender (in all honesty i believe thats where non binary has developed from).

Dysphoria can continue ecen with the change of gender.

People can be transgender without GD and vice verse.

Yeah, il wind my neck in as well Rufus. I caused that one

Thanks for being patient with me.

Im not actually a massive cow IRL. Perhaps i have some pondering to do over my defense mechanism as you accurately put it.

a quick research will do that for you. they are two completely separate concepts.

Answers like this are part of the problem I think @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou because you've been asked a genuine question then aren't replying in a constructive way. A quick Google absolutely doesn't explain what is a very nuanced topic which isn't clearly and definitively defined anywhere - much is based on theory and opinion. Hence biology is undeniable but other topics are more complicated than that.

So if I was you instead of giving a dismissive answer like yours, I would have taken on board the question and answered with my own personal definition of the two concepts / what makes them different to one another etc. Because I would want to share what might be a new and interesting opinion with someone I'm engaging with, to both try to see where the other is coming from even if you don't end up on common ground. That would be my approach.

Whereas this particular one from you was a bit like when you challenge a conspiracy theorist to provide evidence and get a 'do your own research' answer because they never have reliable links! Which then undermines their cause and makes people not take them seriously.

I really have tried to be fair and measured on this thread which is why it's disappointing when people ask genuine questions many of us are asking (e.g. if gender isn't something you can define, how can someone be transgender?) and they're batted away.

So if the poster was to ask you that same question again, what would your answer be?

The question was:

If a 'trans child' doesn't have gender dysphoria, what is it that makes them trans?

Crossdressing is a different thing again, see Jamie from Everybodys Talking about Jamie, for example

Ive revisited my answer to Crone, I took it as an attack that it wasnt

I hope my second answer answers that better.

It’s the whole gendered soul, isn’t it Old ? The belief in the gendered soul that leads my daughter’s crackpot school to declare that there are some parents who believe their child is gender dysphoric RATHER than trans (and that they don’t support these parents). I have this sneaking suspicion that’s the next step after self ID in Scotland. With the removal of the medical diagnosis of GD, I bet the lobby groups will start pushing the idea that GD is a made up condition.

i generally dont know what word you mean....are you allowed to say it on tne basis of this interaction?

Autogynephilia. (This post will probably be deleted in a few minutes).

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

Perhaps i have some pondering to do over my defense mechanism as you accurately put it.

I genuinely think it would be really helpful because it means you're operating from a place of defence and being combative when people are actually often asking quite thoughtful questions.

When someone doesn't share the core belief you have, it may feel like any question at all about that topic is an attack or accusation.

But sometimes people really are trying to understand, as it's a topic that's affecting many of us and making us worried about young people we know, love and want to see thrive.

I would consider trans gender an action as opposed to gender dysphoria. Actively moving to the gender you would prefer to be, as opposed to dysphoria.

Fwiw its not that I personally identify with these concepts or necessarily agree with them, im talking about what i understand them to be and how we (or schools, or.LGBTY does)

Appreciate I am very late to this thread but this is almost word for word how I approached this with my own teenage son, the comparison with religion seemed to make it accessible to him.

I said this earlier, and i think it still stands. The last two years for us , as with everyone, has been really difficult amd ive seen some really wrenching scenes. I think its replicating (or playing out) in my temper in the topic in general as i dont habe the same emotions about gender in sports or prisons, for example

The difference is, GD doesnt cause transgender. There are many people who live with GD without identifying as transgender (in all honesty i believe thats where non binary has developed from).

So stopwaiting how does LGBTYS make it clear in their teacher training that it is possible to live with GD without identifying as transgender? How do they give different options to children? What do they suggest other than social transition?

I've been working for a few years now so I can only go on updated training in schools - I will have a look at the NQT training (incidentally, when I trained, we didnt have input from them).

In terms of the GD and transgender diagnosis I would presume that is part of the process. For example, I have had communication such as x in Sx is now identifying as x and should be called x.

I have also had communication to say that pupil x is referring to themselves as x but their register name and sex should be used and any issues to be raised with staff member x. (hence why I was horrified by your story).

In terms of the transition, I've seen it play out in many ways. I've seen pupils who do not physically change, pupils who I would say sit closer to non binary. LGBTY's latest line appears to be that it can change "day by day".

As GD is a psychological condition (not mental illness) that can be diagnosed, I would imagine it would be dealt with like any other condition experienced by a pupil - a plan put in place and relevant communication passed to staff.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

Actively moving to the gender you would prefer to be, as opposed to dysphoria.

But how do you 'move to the gender you would prefer to be' in a real sense?

Only do 'boy' things and no 'girl' things?

Because even boys don't only do 'boy' things.

To say a child is changing gender seems to mean to you that the child will start presenting as the gender stereotypes associated with the opposite sex.

Wouldn't it be more empowering to say they are still a boy / girl and can enjoy any activity, hobby, passion, clothing, talent etc they want without having to neatly fit into a checklist of stereotypes?

Yes. If you're asking me as a person - yes.

I wouldn't say its about behaviour. We see more of a physical transformation than anything. In all honesty, gender fluidity is on the rise to such an extent that a "transgender" pupil wouldn't stick out in a group of children, if that makes sense.

As we said earlier, I don't disagree that people should just...........well, be. but wishing and wanting that doesn't change it, and I don't know what the answer is.

So where will that take us? I see a move towards encouraging a kind of gender pick 'n' mix approach, where children are raised to think that gender and sex are completely interchangeable and that we can choose which sex characteristics we prefer.

It's the logical progression of the collapse of definitions of 'sex' and 'gender', I think. They've been confused and conflated for so long that some people genuinely now believe 'sex is a spectrum' and go by the Mr Potato-head school of biology, in which any body can have any combination of body parts removed/grafted on/rebuilt.