Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

Again, your story really touched me, but trying to suggest that schools deliberately overplay the suicide risk to try and force the trans issue (why would we) is ludicrous. It really is. It's not always about the parents, you know. Many children who are transgender and have support from home still suffer from depression and mental health issues. It's a risky concept.

No, I think LGBTYS overplay the risks to schools. They make it black and white. Support the social transition of your child or else they will be at serious risk of self harm, suicide etc. There is no middle ground with them. They don’t recognise that there are various ways to manage gender dysphoria, social transition being one such way for some and they don’t recognise that it is possible for parents to support their child but not the identity and that some children recognise this and accept this. Schools then do not have the full picture and feel they must support social transition.

Ie LGBTYS give a blanket approach for dealing with gender distressed/dysphoric children. This in itself goes against GIRFEC because surely, schools should be treating GD children as individuals and working to understand which approach is best for each child.

Having read your story @rod and being respectful to that, I'm being careful here. I can't speak for your reality, I can only speak for mine, and the above just doesn't represent it.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

On that point, I don't disagree. But then I'm not transgender.

I think though (and as you know, I come in peace!) this all comes back to the point earlier on.

If gender is a social construct and the characteristics we associate with a certain gender are stereotypes, isn't it less harmful to suggest that some children would be comfortable and reassured by being told that gender identity is a social construct and that if they don't fit into the stereotypes associated with the sex they were born, it doesn't mean they're the 'wrong' sex and need to aim to change from boy to girl or vice versa - it just means that they are a boy or girl who has interests that are stereotypically associated with the opposite sex but that they can enjoy whatever interest they want and it doesn't mean they are in the 'wrong' body or there is something that needs fixing.

We are denying some children the chance to just be themselves.

I was a really tomboy. I'm bisexual. I had a difficult childhood. Had someone encouraged me in my early teens to consider that the fact I wasn't girly and the fact I wasn't heterosexual meant maybe I was born in the 'wrong' body or wasn't really a girl, I think I could have been quite vulnerable to that affecting me.

When in fact I'm just a run of the mill bisexual woman who wasn't especially bothered about 'girly' stuff as a child.

But not everyone trans child has gender dysphoria.

*every

I don't disagree (although I don't believe there's any correlation between sexuality and gender).

I was the same, I cut about in my brothers clothes for most of my teens.

But time does move on. I probably shouldn't use the word Stonewall on here but I met Ian McKellen through work a few times. He was "straight" until his late life because it was illegal to not be.

Can you imagine how many gay men or women were convinced that they weren't?

I don't think that's a huge world away from insisting to a transgender child that they can't be. As you said, people can be what they want.

But my point @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou is that if gender is a social construct based on a rigid set of stereotypes then how can someone identify as a gender and it mean something?

I identify as a woman because I am biologically a woman. My characteristics, interests, passions, hobbies, desires etc wouldn't fit neatly into a male / female gender box. There are some stereotypes of my gender that I individually happen to conform to and some that I go against. That doesn't make me any more or less woman.

This is why I feel it's empowering for people to reject the concept of gender as it is so limiting and instead focus on themselves as individuals, their passions / talents / dreams / interests etc without trying to decide if that hugely complex and nuanced group of 'what makes you, you' happens to tally with their genitals.

Until someone can define gender in a way that isn't 'just a feeling', it doesn't feel right to me to encourage children to believe they are the 'wrong' one for their body.

I dont disagree with you at all, I really don't.

I guess the nub of the disagreement will always be this. I didn't invent the concept transgender, my own opinions on it aside, its my professional responsibility to support the children in the way outlined by guidance, in line with what they believe.

In the same way I disagree with aspects of the curriculum/exams, or the behaviour policy, but it's not my role to challenge them.

I consider myself privileged that I've never questioned myself in the sense of my gender, and I guess ultimately I dont believe that adding more confusion and stress by doing what is effectively dismissing their feelings is the right way forward.

I consider myself privileged that I've never questioned myself in the sense of my gender, and I guess ultimately I dont believe that adding more confusion and stress by doing what is effectively dismissing their feelings is the right way forward.

I don't think it's dismissive at all to explain gender is a social construct, discuss the stereotypes used to represent each gender and talk about why them not ticking all the boxes of the one that corresponds with either boy or girl doesn't define whether they are a boy or girl. It's more confusing to suggest that gender stereotypes define whether you're a boy or a girl.

I don't think it's dismissive, I think having a calm and interesting conversation with them and explaining they can have interests, hobbies, passions etc that traditionally fit into a stereotype box but have no need to, could actually be affirming and empowering.

Saying 'don't be stupid, you're a boy' is dismissive and something I would never say. Asking them why they felt they weren't a boy, chatting about what they wanted to do / be that they felt wasn't possible as a boy etc to understand more about their thinking and help them realise that they don't have to tick off a particular set of attributes to fit into an old fashioned and outdated stereotype is positive, not negative.

If a 'trans child' doesn't have gender dysphoria, what is it that makes them trans?

And iet’s say there are trans children who don’t have gender distress/dysphoria, that doesn’t take away from the fact that LGBTYS give a blanket approach for children with gender distress/dysphoria who want to socially transition at school, that the principles of GIRFEC are being ignored.

youvegottenminuteslynn

excellent posts

Rufus is the sole purpose of your existence on this thread to pop up to agree with anyone interacting with me, however peaceful? I'm wondering if that's the idea.

a quick research will do that for you. they are two completely separate concepts.

Depends on your definition of GD. Diagnosis?

Do you honestly believe these conversations haven't taken place?

Or is the scaremongering that bad that people genuinely believe there is no process whatsoever?

chatting about what they wanted to do / be that they felt wasn't possible as a boy etc to understand more about their thinking and help them realise that they don't have to tick off a particular set of attributes to fit into an old fashioned and outdated stereotype is positive, not negative.

That also seems to me to chime perfectly with the curriculum, as it's supposed to be taught (I'm in Scotland). The RSHP resources have lots of great material challenging sexism, which is then often immediately contradicted by some of the transgender lessons.

I can imagine it's difficult to strike the right balance - our schools so far have had a light touch and teaching has been sensible and grounded.

It is possible to have a nuanced, sensitive and considerate conversation about the issues, despite what some would have you believe.

The definition doesn’t matter. If a child says they have gender distress or dysphoria and wants to socially transition in school, LGBTYS promotes a blanket approach instead of telling schools to follow GIRFEC principles. There are no situations re re quested support for social transition where LGBTYS even hint that there might be alternative paths for the school to take.

Everyone is interacting with you

does that mean I can’t comment on anyones posts?

Youre not that daft. We both know what youre doing. Just as everything is peaceful, its not needed.

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

I'm saying this as someone who I think has had respectful dialogue with you... You're doing that thing again when you're getting needlessly snarky with people.

Someone agreed with something I said and told me it was a good post. Something people do all over the internet on forums every day.

The post in question was (as I think all of mine to you have been) polite and measured, so this wasn't someone adding to a pile on or character assassination.

By responding the way you did, accusing them of 'popping up' to have a go at you, you've made the conversation about you again when I was talking about the very real children we are concerned about and you say you're concerned about too, which I'm sure is true.

You're in danger of merailing every time you centre yourself that way. It's unproductive and it makes it hard for people to engage in good faith.

Im in Scotland and work in a school
Which part of 'have you believe' do you think im doing?

When was the last time you completed your LGBT youth training or saw a PSE or RE lesson?

stopwaiting your responses are really off. Please stop being rude. This entire thread is not just about you, and whether you are paranoid or acting in bad faith, you are derailing.

crosspost, youvegottenminutesLynn.