Help with talking to a 12 yr old about trans issues

[GoingOnce]

My son has a friend whose sister is apparently now his brother. I sense my son wants to talk to me about this and I want to have the right language to engage sensibly in a conversation. He has swallowed whole the ideology that people can change their gender as this has been “explained” to them at school. The child does not attend my son’s school but still attends a girls school - whilst going by a new name, wearing an adapted and having a special toilet assigned just for them.

The child in question (and the entire family) is struggling. There is self-harm and have been suicide attempts. I do not want to criticise them or their child. But I do want my child to realise that they are being presented with one narrative here. (I am quite certain the parents are simply going along with the whole thing because they are terrified of their child’s mental state and what they might do next. I feel very sorry for them).

Any advice for how I can discuss this sensibly? I can’t believe at age 12 we are already having to talk about all this.

Thanks for your input.

As much as the poster who launched the personal attack that I was responing to there (the very grown up was a flippant remark btw, as they were claiming I was a child, I was going to say I'm a very big girl and then I thought that would launch another attack about the use of gender) at least they have gumption and passion and took me on, which is fine. I hit back at the time but funnily enough it hasn't consumed my life since then, as it clearly has yours.

You, as a sideline poster with nothing to say other than passive aggressive nonsense about what you imagined (imagine investing so much in nothing to do with you).

I'm not running away or name changing anywhere. The fact you think what some random people (and I;m excluding the posters with stories and opinions and the ones who have managed to critique what I appreciate is an awkward view, as I've admitted above,) have got to chat about me on an internet forum when they know nothing about me...........well, that's an insight into your own entitlement, not mine.

Yeah, i know that. If you look at my original posts they were done in the week of the training in it was what a really shitty, really emotional, traumatic time for schools. They really are.

I've been utterly ridiculous in some of the things I've said, but it comes from a good place.

Re your final paragrah - I didnt mean you, lynn. Ive always found you to challenge me fairly. But MN isn't a collective, and for every awkward sod like me there's one on 'the other side' using children in their agenda. If people choose to believe that every single poster who is 'concerned' about children is doing so in good faith, that's up to them, I guess.

PS - I don't disagree on the sports issues. This is probably whye veryone thinks I can't argue my way out of a paper bag - partly becuse I don't have a set view on everything relating to trans, because I don't believe it's a black and white issue.

Let's not call us a risk to children, thanks.

However - do you think it would be professionally dangerous if I, for example, starting refusing to acknowledge pronouns and genders?

I tell you who would - the GTCS. I'd be out like a shot.

As I've said a million times on this thread, agendas dont pay the bills. Now it just so happens that I do support many of the areas of transgender (not all).

But let's say I didn't. What would you have me do? Challenge my head teacher? Start telling the child what I think?

I wouldn't have a job for long to be professionaly 'dangerous' in,

@stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou

PS - I don't disagree on the sports issues. This is probably whye veryone thinks I can't argue my way out of a paper bag - partly becuse I don't have a set view on everything relating to trans, because I don't believe it's a black and white issue.

I think this is really interesting as it might help you understand the helplessness some of us feel and how we feel we are being silenced.

Would you stand up at school and confidently say you are on board with self identifying pronouns etc - yes, because you believe those things.

Would you stand up at school and confidently say you share my views on trans players in sport? Probably not. Almost definitely not. Because you know that there would be a backlash, you would be called transphobic and you'd be told you're a bigot. You know you aren't those things (I presume) but aren't willing to say your true feelings for fear of being labelled as those things and 'cancelled' for want of a better term.

That is how we are treated when we speak out about issues like trans players in sport. It's scary. Genuinely scary. If I was vocal about it on my personal work accounts I would lose clients and be fucked.

Because I cannot afford not to work, I have to not openly voice my feelings on platforms that would crucify me for simply saying I don't think it's fair or safe for a 16 year old trans girl to play in the same team as, and against teams of, 16 year old girls. But it's just factually true. It's not fair. It's not safe.

I am a good, kind person who loves kids. I am not cruel or nasty or a bigot. If I saw them being attacked I would sacrifice my safety to defend a trans child or adult because that's what I do when I see anyone being attacked.

It is so unfair that by also standing up for the safety of girls and women, I would be labelled a bigot. But the painful truth is, if someone at your work did read about me saying my thoughts about trans players in sport and they called me a bigot and everyone nodded, I don't think you would have the courage of your convictions to say that you actually agree with me. For fear of how it would affect your reputation.

And that makes me feel really shit.

You make it sound as if we aren't really and that we're just voicing concerns to be nasty... but we are genuinely concerned

absolutely

its very tiresome saying you feel one way about something and then being told that you don’t actually feel that way at all

why does it make you feel shit youvegottenminutes

sad i get but why shit?

shit about the subject in general?

💐

Have you actually read my bloody post? What more do you want from me, blood?!

Well, if it helps -

My colleagues and i recently had a discussion about this. Both of us agree with your viewpoint. I wouldn't call you a bigot, and tbh there's no place for that word being thrown around in a school anyway. I think most people would agree.

And in the scenario you suggest, I would stick up for you. Because I agree with you.

I just wouldn't lie. and I don't agree with anyone who thinks we should tell children that transgender doesn't exist and that they can't be transgender and can't have different pronouns,

That;s my opinion,

We're from the same side of the road here, lynn (you just express yourself a lot better than me).

For what its worth, I dont think anyone on here is an awful and unkind person.
In the same way where I do have a friend who is fundamentally anti-trans, and I still love her as much as always - she's funny, she's kind and beautiful. But i think shes fundamentally wrong in her views.

But that's life. And if I have contributed for 1 second to you feeling shit, I apologise.

Maybe shit was the wrong word.

Exhausted and disappointed is a better description I guess.

Years of fighting for marginalised people, disadvantaged people, the gay and lesbian community, women and girls, years of trauma that probably fuelled a lot of that and then whatever I have to say on one topic (on which my stance remains that we should do what is safe and fair) means despite all that I would be labelled as a bigot.

And it pains me that many of the people who have benefitted from the painful work many of us did to help them over the years would sit in silence and listen to us being labelled bigots even when they actually agree with us but are too afraid of reprisals and being labelled transphobic to stand up and say they agree.

To be clear my last post wasn't just about @stopwaitingforpermissiontobeyou - I'm speaking in general terms about people not speaking their minds IRL and in their silence being complicit in some of us being labelled transphobic when we are simply seeking fairness and safety.

Well, if it helps (not sure if it will) I'd stick up for you in what I agree with and I wouldn't for what I don't (as in agreeing with you) but I wouldn't have anyone calling anyone a bigot.

I would like to think the majority of people wouldn't in a real life situation, and I'm sorry to hear that.

If OP had started a thread about the sports issue, my responses would have been very different. I guess tht's my own thought process to figure out why I'm all over the place when it's a child in a school - too close to home? who knows.

Thanks pal.

I'm sure many more posters will be along having read selected quotes to tell me what a terrible human I am (I haven't helped as I'm utterly useless at responding when I feel attacked, and do get petty) but our interaction just there has been genuine on my part and very eye opening.
Thanks for trusting me with it.

would sit in silence and listen to us being labelled bigots even when they actually agree with us

and thats the thing as well

there is a regular poster (not on this thread) who quite often berates other posters her and I KNOW that we both agree on different aspects of this

its a lot more nuanced than FWR believes this or that

I have no idea what the ‘her’ means

i assume ‘here’

Yeah, but back at you.

Just because I get personally probably over sensitive about children in classrooms doesn't mean I have a set view - I would agree with lynn over the sports issue.

Glad I'm not the berater - I'll take my medal as the 2nd worst guy of the day.

What I've taken from this interaction is to spend more time actually listening to posts, even if I completely disagree, like I would in real life, rather than jumping in with petty comments etc. Because I wouldn't beh ave like that in real life, none of us would.

Truce? I've got pink cherry gin on hand, I'm sure that's something we could all agree on.

I have never said teachers should refuse to use pronouns or challenge a child's "gender identity" As an adult in a school, you follow your school policies / directions.No teacher should ever challenge a child personally about all this - that's inappropriate.

I commented on professional dangerousness in relation to the "chat" that rogdmum posted where the youth worker demonstrated professional dangerousness in their comments. PD is often identified in Serious Case Reviews after child deaths / incidents of serious harm. Although he didn't use the phrase, this judgement from Lord Justice Hayden in the case of Child J clearly identified professionals putting a child at repeated risk of harm by following the demands of an ideology rather than listening to the child and examining the evidence (that showed his mother was a significant risk to this 7 year old boy). They stepped outside their professional expertise and a child was harmed as a result. It's well worth a read:

www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Fam/2016/2430.html.

Oh, for goodness sake. Did you clock the name of the site? Do you understand that many of the posters here are parents?

What is this idea that we 'don't believe in trans', where have you got that from? It's not about 'believing in trans', anymore than I believe that Christians exist. I know Christians exist, I have many Christian friends; I do not believe in God nor accept Jesus Christ as my personal lord and saviour. Do you see the difference?

No one is saying they don’t believe there are children who suffer from gender distress/dysphoria. It’s just that they don’t agree with labelling these children as “trans” as pushed by LGBTYS and other lobby groups. There’s a big difference between leaving the child and their peer group to identify as they wish and being dismissive of the descriptor “trans” when in contact with that child. However, when posting on a forum like Mumsnet, no one is required to talk about the “trans child” when they view the issue through the lens of GD. Transition is just one way of managing gender dysphoria, but LGBTYS don’t mention that at all.

I also resent the extremes pushed by LGBTYS in their teacher training. I’m assuming the Godawful (and not evidence based) graph of risks/outcomes for children with “supportive parents” vs “unsupportive parents” is still included (though ScotGov had replaced the noose next to the suicide risk with 2 pills <rolls eyes> ). These graphics are pure scaremongering and only serve to scare teachers into affirming. There is no acknowledgment that it can be perfectly possible for the child and their parents to agree to disagree without any hostility or drama. However, again with the messages given to children, schools need to be very careful and not overplay the situation, giving the child the impression that if their parents don’t support a social transition that this means the child is in an unsafe environment which could lead to x, y or z consequences.

No, I had no idea,
Thanks for explaining.

But you don't believe in trans. Your whole explanation proves that, by comparing it to God. You don't believe it in a concept. All the word games in the world doesn't escape that.

No, it's not a 'word game'.

I understand that some people identify as trans. How is that 'not believing in trans'?

What I don't believe is that gender identity is innate. I believe we are socialised to think that some clothing, behaviours, hairstyles are associated with one sex or the other. I don't believe any child is born liking Barbie dolls and the colour pink if they have a certain type of chromosome.

As I said earlier in the thread, we completed our latest LGBTYS course earlier this week. No mention of parents.

I appreciate your situation rodgmum, but referring to it as "overplaying" the situation is part of the problem. Who are you, I or anyone else to decide that the child does or doesn't feel suicidal?

Again, your story really touched me, but trying to suggest that schools deliberately overplay the suicide risk to try and force the trans issue (why would we) is ludicrous. It really is. It's not always about the parents, you know. Many children who are transgender and have support from home still suffer from depression and mental health issues. It's a risky concept.

On that point, I don't disagree.
But then I'm not transgender.