This (prison rape of female by transgender prisoner) never happens ...

[Mumsnut]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10755219/Transgender-Rikers-inmate-incarcerated-assault-housed-womens-wing-RAPES-female-inmate.html

Your original post also included this section...
This over-representation continued until 2012, since when proportions of incidents in male and female establishments more closely aligned to their respective share of the prison population
So once again,thank you for this information but I don't see how it supports your argument and it raises quite a few questions because it would appear that this rising epidemic of sexual violence of female prisoners against female prisoners doesn't really exist now?
What reasons are given for this massive drop ? Were there changes in what was considered consensual or non consensual sexual activity? Was there a similar drop in cases in the male estate ? Moreover, given the tiny numbers of female prisoners compared to male , a drop to " aligned to their respective share of the prison population" might be a tiny number of cases?
So many questions!

In the interest of full facts
”Last week, ministers revealed that out of 124 sexual assaults in five women's jails over the previous nine years, from 2010 to 2018, seven had been carried out by trans prisoners. Ms Frazer said the total [seven] included those who were born female but identified as men, non-binary or intersex, as well as people who were male by birth and now identified as female. One of the cases was that of Karen White, who sexually assaulted two women while on remand at New Hall prison in Wakefield in 2017.”

So taking the unknown number of trans prisoners who are biological males would reduce the number of sexual assaults by a figure less than 7. This means that over 95% of sexual assaults in womens prisons will continue unchecked.

”The case prompted an overhaul of guidelines for transgender prisoners and led to the establishment of a new transgender unit at HMP Downview, in south London.” So…you see there is a transgender unit at a YO and Womens prison….so the sexes are no longer mixing. What can possibly be the problem with this solution?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52748117

Who goes on a feminist board to argue that incarcerated women need to provide validation for male criminals, and tries to back it up with statistics about those same women being assaulted???

And then moan that no one cares about women!

Well, of course, I know who.

@334bu
Dropping to not be disproportionately assaulted twice the rate that men are in mens prisons isn’t a “massive drop” nor does it mean there is no epidemic of sexual assault. One thing to note about the U.K. governments exploratory report is that all staff on inmate assaults are EXCLUDED. If you read a few articles with reports from women who have been in prison, that is where the majority of abuse goes on in the shadows. They say too they cannot report these assaults.

The case prompted an overhaul of guidelines for transgender prisoners and led to the establishment of a new transgender unit at HMP Downview, in south London.” So…you see there is a transgender unit at a YO and Womens prison….so the sexes are no longer mixing. What can possibly be the problem with this solution?

The KPSS link I gave above gives fairly detailed information about the problems with this 'solution'.

I'm going to ask again. What does rape by male prison officers or female on female sexual assault in female prisons have to do with introducing more males into the female estate in the form of transwomen? Why are you correlating these issues?

studies have shown that the risk of prison rape is highest for transgender people if transgender people are put in with inmates of their birth sex.

Discovereads Do you mean studies of transwomen? Transmen are not put with men in the UK - one prison tried it and the transwomen was back in the women's prison sharpish and never again. See ex prison governor of Cornton Vale and Greenock prisons Rhona Hotchkiss' speech: It the first one and it lasts 18 minutes - the subtitles haven't been corrected and can't cope with her accent in places! - but her whole speech is worth listening to. She talks specifically about transmen at about 16 minutes.

A separate wing or ward where they never mix is would have the exact same protection as a separate prison and can be implemented immediately and at zero cost

you clearly have no idea how prisons work. Prisoners from separate wings would be likely to mix, for example during exercise

women’s prisons have far lighter security than men’s prisons and would simply not be equipped to deal with some of the more serious offenders who are men who identify as women

Sorry - I mistyped. Should have been "the transman was back in the women's prison sharpish"

Yes. I read it. There was a very pertinent statement at the end of the single section that discussed female perpetrators. It was posted up thread, but here is the problematic statement.

It is possible that, towards the start of this timeframe, some of this imbalance was due to men being less likely than women to report such incidents to prison staff.

Also, those statistics are NOT broken down into which sex has committed which crime. I prefer to draw my conclusions from seeing better break downs of data. I don't find this data compelling that there is the epidemic that you have told us.

I agree that measures should be taken to protect all prisoners better, and certainly women who also have a greater chance of being in prison for not paying their bills.

I'm going to ask again. What does rape by male prison officers or female on female sexual assault in female prisons have to do with introducing more males into the female estate in the form of transwomen? Why are you correlating these issues?

I am actually quite confused here.

Is it really just a case that a poster has become entrenched in trying to convince us that women need better protection in prison (which we all wholeheartedly agree) that it has become such a polarised issue on this thread.

Do some women commit sex assaults in prison? Yes. We know they do.

What has this got to do with the original article posted? Nothing. Unless a poster is trying to distract people away from the post, or are attempting whatboutery to progress their own agenda. Which is what? That all women in prison should be better protected. And around we go ....

The issue being discussed is the placement of a male prisoner in a female prison.

Just as another pp stated (regardless of the intent of their post), let's get rid of the 'trans'! YES!!!! These are males. They need to be placed in with other vulnerable male prisoners.

There are facilities for that.

In fact, a shiny new building was created for transitioned male prisoners in England, and it was rejected by the lobby groups. That tells me all I need to know about the priority of females to those lobby groups and to the departments that have continued to allow males into female prison estates.

Dropping to not be disproportionately assaulted twice the rate that men are in mens prisons isn’t a “massive drop” nor does it mean there is no epidemic of sexual assault. One thing to note about the U.K. governments exploratory report is that all staff on inmate assaults are EXCLUDED. If you read a few articles with reports from women who have been in prison, that is where the majority of abuse goes on in the shadows. They say too they cannot report these assaults.

Prisons are violent places and most abuse will occur in the shadows in both male and female prisons, so I am not denying violence happens between prisoners. However, your figures still don't add up and pose more questions. Why was there such a drop? Is it better policing or has there been a change in attitude to what constitutes non consensual sexual activity? If figures have been halved can you really talk about a rising epidemic of violence?

You also talk about male prisoners who identify as women being housed apart from women in the Downview Unit. This is no longer the case , as women have also been placed in this unit alongside these male prisoners.

They were raped by male guards. I dont believe your daughter was raped by a woman, for a start its impossible in the UK.

Although it was decided that the Unit would be for the sole use of male prisoners with a GRC, evidence referred to in the judgement handed down in R (FDJ) v Secretary of State for Justice indicates that women have been housed in E Wing at the same time as males prisoners with a GRC.

At paragraph 37, the judgement states:

In response to the Covid-19 pandemic, E Wing has in recent months also accommodated a number of women prisoners who elected to be placed there in order to shield; but they were on a separate landing from the transgender women.

We consider this to be a very worrying development as it sets a precedent for opening the Unit up to female offenders.

(Fair Play for Women)

The most in-depth research into women’s experiences of sexual abuse in US State Prisons was carried out in 1996 - unsurprisingly, it’s a grim read.

In 1999 Amnesty made a series of recommendations relating to US prisons breaching the human rights of incarcerated women; including recommendations for ways to reduce the level of sexual assault. In 2005 they issued a follow-up reiterating their concerns around sexual assaults (& the shackling of prisoners in labour).

Hallie Martinyuk’s 2014 Understanding Rape In Prison (for Pennsylvania Coalition Against Rape) looks at both male & female prisons, including a discussion of their differing cultures & demographics.

Nobody is willing to research the impact of placing male prisoners in female jails. I mean, it’s obvious what that impact is; the press is covering what that impact is (where they can get hold of the story); but if the research isn’t done & the papers aren’t written, it gets handwaved. The US has a fairly dismal record when it comes to the human rights of prisoners as it is - it is a genuine concern of mine that there are people making these decisions who see prisoners as so utterly Other that they don’t see the issue with mixed-sex facilities because, effectively, none of it is happening to Real People, after all.

let's get rid of the 'trans'!

To clarify MNHQ, I mean in descriptions in media etc. Obviously I don't wish to 'get rid of the trans' in any other way. For a start, I would never dehumanise a group by calling them 'the trans' like we see activists do calling people 'the feminists' or 'the GCs'. And I don't wish harm to them in any way, I wish that they can have their needs addressed without conflict with the rights of females set up to address negative sexist discrimination.

Just before anyone reports my post.

*That all women in prison should be better protected. And around we go ....

The issue being discussed is the placement of a male prisoner in a female prison.*

Quite. I think everyone on this thread would agree that women in prisons should be better protected from all sorts of abuse, threat and fear. The rape of women by male prison guards is deplorable. Any sexual assault of female prisoners by other female prisoners is dreadful and should be tackled.

However, the introduction of males into the female estate because they identify as women is a completely different issue and the forced teaming correlation of all these issues is an attempt to defect away the risk to women by males being housed in the female prison estate. An issue quite easily readified by ensuring that prisons are single sex.

Can anyone point me at any sources regarding the rape of female prisoners in the UK by prison staff? I've found one article regarding the alleged rape of a male in the 1990s, but nothing regarding females.

This thread highlighting facts that contradict this belief has brought about a panic in some people, and this is why this thread has attracted so many posters with a certain idological viewpoint.

What do others think?

I think you're spot on. Realising your cognitive dissonance is scary. The whataboutery on this thread 🙄

I understand that trans women have access to more intimate female only spaces than men do, but is the fear that people feel really, genuinely proportionate to the risk

It's not just about "fear" or risk. I don't want any men in female spaces because it's a violation of my privacy and dignity. It's not about trans anything. Understand that.

But where will the millions of pounds come from to build separate prisons for transgender people then?

If the money isn't there, I'd suggest separate wings in prisons for their own sex, like other vulnerable males. If not acceptable, I'm sure the vastly overfunded trans lobby can help to build more suitable trans prisons.

women’s prisons have far lighter security than men’s prisons and would simply not be equipped to deal with some of the more serious offenders who are men who identify as women

That was exactly why GRC holder, Karen Jones (convicted for manslaughter and attempted rape), was quietly released when Jones insisted upon being transferred to the female estate and was deemed too great a risk given the level of security available.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3370661-2009-case-of-a-judge-ordering-an-intact-male-rapist-into-a-female-prison-because-he-had-a-GRC

NB: now a celebrity, Jones was later invited by Lord Patel to address the House of Lords on the topic of transgender prisoners:
www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3180050-Invited-to-talk-at-the-House-of-Lords

Can anyone point me at any sources regarding the rape of female prisoners in the UK by prison staff? I've found one article regarding the alleged rape of a male in the 1990s, but nothing regarding women.

This is a thread about the dangers of putting male prisoners, including sex offenders into female prisons. There may well be make prison officers who have also raped incarcerated women but that is not the subject of this thread. If there are many cases, this could be a reason to make female prisons a totally male free zone.

Apologies male not make and first paragraph should have been in bold.

@334bu thats sort of my point. There are NOT many cases of rape and sexual assault by staff on female prisoners, yet some people in this thread are trying to suggest that its happening all the time.

The argument isn't complicated or nuanced, and I apologise if I muddied the waters - no prisoner who is biologically male should be held in the female estate. Thats sort of the end of it. There are no special cases.

Rhona Hotchkiss is my new heroine.

It's difficult to obtain figures. The ONS provides some (source of Statista, I think) and it's unclear whether the scenario you outline is covered by 'Other' and there's the additional difficulty of combining sexual assault and rape.

www.statista.com/statistics/315161/sexual-assaults-prisoners-type-england-wales/

Paper discusses some incidental issues around categorising assaults and rapes:

journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/26326663211015852

As a tangent, I found the 'facts' stated at the end of this piece (first part is about HMP Belmarsh) interesting but there's no source for the facts and the numbers are so out of scale for the UK that I have to think it's the US. And my impression is that there are substantial differences between the UK and US prison systems.

some female prisoners were engaging in sexual favours with the officers to get drugs or food, and that was a real shock for me…
The serious sexual attacks or rape often go unreported – most women don’t even bother attempting to report an incident.
There are so many hurdles you have to jump to report to a police officer, so incidents remain hidden. Thankfully I was never a victim of a sexual attack, but I was sexually harassed by one male prison officer.
…
Women in prison: The facts
● A study on women’s health in prison interviewed 2,250 woman one month after they’d been taken into custody – 25 said they had had sex with another woman. Another 18 said they’d had sex with a man during this period, but only one confirmed that a condom had been used.

www.mirror.co.uk/news/real-life-stories/inside-uks-biggest-womens-prison-22237107