This (prison rape of female by transgender prisoner) never happens ...

[Mumsnut]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10755219/Transgender-Rikers-inmate-incarcerated-assault-housed-womens-wing-RAPES-female-inmate.html

I know. Of all the crap TRA arguments, it really is one of the crappest - up there with 'your toilet at home is mixed sex'...

Oh yes. They seem to genuinely see no difference between the single user toilet in your own house, shared with people you have chosen to live with, and a multi user public facility, often shared with people who are complete strangers to you. I just tune out that nonsense now.

Bunny, are you suggesting women are raping women in English and Welsh prisons?

I always think when someone uses the “but your toilet at home is mixed” that they really genuinely don’t understand the objection to mixed public toilets. They seem to think it’s to do with hygiene and thinking boys/men are dirty. Baffling. Imagine living such a privileged existence that you literally can’t see the danger.😮

I did hear a comment by a prison officer that the women in women's prisons were unlikely to attack other women and were actually at most at risk from themselves. Self-harm was the most common kind of violence.

Knowing something about self-harm, I did wonder what proportion of females in prison had been sexually assaulted in the outside world.

I also wondered about the proportion of males in prison who have committed sexual assaults.

I would like to see Discovereads evidence for the epidemic of rape in English female prisons

I think I'll wait sitting down. This strikes me as being somewhat along the lines of lesbians being a danger to other women in public toilets; something that only happens in the sordid imagination of men.

And yes, I know we are talking about women inmates, but the vast majority are in prison for non-violent crimes

Comfortable with what as a hetero woman?
I'm also a hetero woman and I'm not comfortable with male bodied* *people in women's spaces.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/737991/sexual-assaults-reported-prisons-exploratory-findings.pdf

“11% (n=202) of individuals involved (as both assailants and victims) [in reported incidents of sexual assault in prisons in England and wales] were female, whereas women comprised an average 5% of the prison population between 2002 and 2014. Published statistics show that for much of the period between 2002 and 2014, a disproportionately high number of sexual assault incidents were reported in women’s establishments. For example, in 2002, 6% of the prison population was female, but 12% of reported sexual assaults occurred in female establishments. This over-representation continued until 2012, since when proportions of incidents in male and female establishments more closely aligned to their respective share of the prison population.”

In the US at least the vast majority of sexual assault in womens prison is assault of female prisoners by male prison staff.

It is a much bigger issue, and one of many issues in prison management. But this single issue is very straightforward to fix, making it markedly different from the others. In any corporate change program or government policy this would be the first action - quick, let’s pick the low hanging fruit to get some results then tackle the endemic cultural problems Ie the hard stuff.

doubt the individual women who are assaulted care about the statistics.

"A point which has been made when it's been pointed out that statistically speaking, women prisoners are statistically very unlikely to be raped by a transgender person."

I'm sure women raped in prisons or hospitals by men masquerading as women are comforted by that thought.

I am going to have to dig out the data I found that attributed many of the sexual assaults in women’s prison to attempted forced retrieval of smuggled contraband. I’m not condoning any kind of sexual violence, but I think it’s a crime with very different motivations to rape.

But this single issue is very straightforward to fix, making it markedly different from the others.

Well, yes. That's pretty much the entirety of the justification for male/female separation.

If you can reduce the risk of 50% of the prison population by 95% by such a straightforward measure as separating them from the other 50% it would be negligent not to.

I think that's where we need to be here - prosecuting authorities for criminal negligence by putting women into easily-avoidable forseeable harm situations.

I’m comfortable as a hetero woman, why are soma you you not?

"Comfortable" with other women being sexually assaulted by men who shouldn't be there? Good for you, I'm not.

Of course you're right. Male people (formerly known as men) should be in male prisons.

Then you wouldn't be put in the difficult position of having to defend rapists.

@Helen8220

You missed off a bit of that paragraph:

It is possible that, towards the start of this timeframe, some of this imbalance was due to men being less likely than women to report such incidents to prison staff.

Vast majority of sexual violence in womens prisons is by males. Not other women.

So if transwomen offenders need separate wings, just keep on with the proven safer strategy of keeping them in mens prisons!

This is completely anecdotal but when I worked with sex offenders in prisons, there were high reported rates of sexual assault on those wings. Basically, sex offenders commit sex offences wherever they are held. I only ever knew 3 transwomen offenders who were not sex offenders, out of 2 dozen or so TWs in various prisons. Of the three non-SOs, one was doing it to be a nuisance to the prison service, one was very flamboyant and IMHO doing it for attention, and one was a very vulnerable young man, who was gr**med by other prisoners into claiming to be trans.

But again you seem to be looking for reasons why rape must be 'worse' than sexual assault.

I doubt female victims of sexual assault will be focusing on the 'positives' of not being impregnated or being passed an STD. Their trauma is real and I don't really understand why you would want to minimise it in any way by suggesting that the traumatic consequences of rape must be somehow worse.

Someone's personal trauma is there own, and I don't think we should generalise that rape with a penis must be worse. It seems grossly unfair to those women suffering after violent sexual assault.

No.

Women do not exist for the benefit of validating rapists. We do not need to justify why we shouldn't be served up as fodder for male criminals to enjoy.

An ideology which relies on subjugating women will, of course, require its proponents to continually defend male sex offenders. It doesn't, however, prevent others from viewing them as beneath contempt.

I'm not suggesting you remove clarity. I'm simply saying I don't think we should assume rape is 'worse'. I doubt any woman would want someone saying to her after a violent assault 'oh but at least you weren't raped, that would have been much worse- you could get pregnant'. Which is what you seem to be arguing

That's EXACTLY my point. No one cares about statistics when it happens to them. Maybe read my entire post and the one I was replying to.

It's not about rape being worse. Sexual assault can carry the exact same tariff.

It's about the crime of rape being male and therefore having the additional risk of pregnancy.

It's not a hierarchy of crime. It's a distinction.

This over-representation continued until 2012, since when proportions of incidents in male and female establishments more closely aligned to their respective share of the prison population
Thank you for this information but I don't see how it supports your argument and it raises quite a few questions because it would appear that this rising epidemic of sexual violence of female prisoners against female prisoners doesn't really exist now?
What reasons are given for this massive drop ? Were there changes in what was considered consensual or non consensual sexual activity? Was there a similar drop in cases in the male estate ? Moreover, given the tiny numbers of female prisoners compared to male , a drop to " aligned to their respective share of the prison population" might be a tiny number of cases?
So many questions!

If you can reduce the risk of 50% of the prison population by 95% by such a straightforward measure as separating them from the other 50% it would be negligent not to.

D'oh, obvious error here. Women aren't 50% of the prison population. That's cos I was busy editing this, and started from a more general point about safeguarding 50% of the population.

In prison, of course, women are an actual minority, and hence even more vulnerable. Can you imagine a fully-mixed prison scenario with 95% male and 5% female? No, that 5% needs to be segregated.

50% of the potential prison population, I guess, even though a woman is less likely to end up there.