This (prison rape of female by transgender prisoner) never happens ...

[Mumsnut]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10755219/Transgender-Rikers-inmate-incarcerated-assault-housed-womens-wing-RAPES-female-inmate.html

"It happens anyway" is the new tack. Check the replies here:

mobile.twitter.com/alexmassie/status/1518972275155947528?cxt=HHwWkMCyxZDPvJQqAAAA

And yes prison rape is preventable. But it seems the bipartisan PREA legislation in the States has been consigned to the annuls of history.

Rape is a very specific crime. There are different risks involved when there is penetration by a penis. It is helpful to have a specific term for it.

That doesn't mean other serious sexual assaults are being "minimised", they do, after all, often carry just as harsh a penalty. But different crimes have different names.

And as to your last paragraph, women are not "only" being assaulted, they are being raped, by men, with his penis. Which is different to being sexually assaulted by a woman.

I find the desperation of some people to try to conceal rape statistics in the muddy waters of sex crimes generally and 'but women do bad things too' serves only one purpose: helping rapist men.

I would be very interested in the statistics regarding the epidemic of sexual violence by female prisoners in the UK prison estate, I wonder if Discovereads could post them here.
As to female prisoners being raped by male prisoners who identify as women. These are crimes which are totally preventable by keeping female prisons single sex.

Rape is a big problem inside male prisons. It is less of a problem inside female prisons, though it is still a problem.

But this thread wasn't about that question. Rather, it was about the question if women in women's prisons face any added risk from the new inclusive policies where prisoners can choose whether they wish to be incarcerated in a male or female prison.

The high percentage of transgender women prisoners who were sentenced on sexual crimes makes it likely in my opinion, but we shall see when data begins to either verify or falsify that.

'men are many, many times more likely to assault women than women are to assault each other, and they are - in general - more physically able to overpower women than the average woman would be'

I agree.

• while it might be true that, in the outside world, a transgender woman is no more likely than any other male to commit rape, a disproportionate number of transgender women (males) in prison are convicted sex-offenders.

Male sex-offenders (even transgender ones) are much more likely to commit sex offences than other males or women.

(Despite the received wisdom that no man ever pretends to be a transwoman, it seems clear that many trans-sex-offenders are quite simply men taking advantage of the system.)

Keeping sex-offending males in women's prisons is clearly dangerous.
(+I would think that prison would be anything but a deterrent to a sex-offender.)

I'd bet you it's still proportionate to the sex, ie massively higher in the male estate. Isn't that why the poor trans women have to be with women, rather than men, to avoid all that sexual assault that men do to them?

I'd be interested in those stats too, regarding the epidemic of rape in women's prisons in the UK.

Oh is one not end for you? How many hundreds, specifically, would be ok? Worldwide, UK? What, are we going to wait till there is a magic 999 rapes and then you're prepared to say that's enough?

‘Despite the received wisdom that no man ever pretends to be a transwoman, it seems clear that many trans-sex-offenders are quite simply men taking advantage of the system.)’

I have no idea how many are consciously deceiving the authorities to be moved to a female prison. It might be none. But also I have no reason to think a male person who has a ‘genuine’ sense of themselves as having a feminine ‘gender identity’ would be less likely to rape a woman than a person with a masculine ‘gender identity’.

They might be less likely. I really don’t know. We’re being asked to take it on faith.

Rape is a very specific criminal offence: "The legal definition of rape is when a person intentionally penetrates another's vagina, anus or mouth with a penis, without the other person's consent. Assault by penetration is when a person penetrates another person's vagina or anus with any part of the body other than a penis, or by using an object, without the person's consent." www.met.police.uk/advice/advice-and-information/rsa/rape-and-sexual-assault/what-is-rape-and-sexual-assault/

Yes ,there are other horrific sexual offences. But this particular one is the subject of this thread.

Oops, I somehow missed @PearPickingPorky making this point above.

I'd bet you it's still proportionate to the sex, ie massively higher in the male estate.

Evidence and Data on Trans Women’s Offending Rates https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/pdf/

So apparently we only care about rape in female prisons because trans women are committing rapes in female prisons. As if our concern about rape is mainly or solely motivated an anti-trans animus as opposed to a genuine upset that female prisoners are being assaulted.

Incidentally, I can’t find it now, but I recall a few years ago a prison manager testified to parliament about female prisons (she thought male prisoners would pretend to be female in bad faith to get access to vulnerable women), and she said that female prisons in the U.K. on the whole were much safer than male prisons in regard to sexual assault.

Here it is, the former governor of Scotland's only women's jail:

www.scotsman.com/news/politics/former-governor-urges-prison-service-to-change-trans-policy-3303150?amp

In addition to the horrific trauma of the assault, only rape, by a male, carries the risk of pregnancy and catching a STI. The rate of pregnancy is 5% overall:

The national rape-related pregnancy rate is 5.0% per rape among victims of reproductive age (aged 12 to 45); among adult women an estimated 32,101 pregnancies result from rape each year. Among 34 cases of rape-related pregnancy, the majority occurred among adolescents and resulted from assault by a known, often related perpetrator. Only 11.7% of these victims received immediate medical attention after the assault, and 47.1% received no medical attention related to the rape. A total 32.4% of these victims did not discover they were pregnant until they had already entered the second trimester; 32.2% opted to keep the infant whereas 50% underwent abortion and 5.9% placed the infant for adoption; an additional 11.8% had spontaneous abortion. pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8765248/
trauma.blog.yorku.ca/2016/01/children-born-of-rape-face-a-painful-legacy/

Presumably if you are raped by a trans woman you could become pregnant (because trans women are male). You may also be more likely to be infected with an STI (I’m guessing at that but it seems reasonable). Assault by a woman certainly won’t end in pregnancy. Isn’t that one of the reasons the crimes have different names?

What is this obsession with removing clarity by smudging the definition of wordS?

Everything about the story is beyond stupid.

Bad faith can almost be taken as read when you're talking about violent criminals.

New York is an area with a huge population (getting on for 20 million), it'd be trivially easy for them to have a single small correctional facility (or more likely specialist segregated area within an existing one) dedicated entirely to male bodied prisoners who've declared themselves female.

I cannot for the life of me think that anyone with a half functioning brain thinks that housing trans women, unsegregated, in a female prison is anything other than a terrible idea. It's utterly senseless.

in much the same way as it's patently not feasible or proportionate for every public toilet to add a third category of convenience for trans toilet users, it patently would be feasible and proportionate for every global metropolis to have a segregated trans prison wing.

Yes, it’s Rhona Hotchkiss. www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3823351-Ex-prison-chief-expresses-concern-about-trans-women-in-female-jails

I've never quite understood why TRA's think an appropriate response to women being raped by male prison guards or being sexually assaulted by other female inmates is to push for more males to be added to the female prison estate in the form of males who (entirely co-incidentally of course) identify as women.

There was statistics cited (and evidenced) on another thread that due to the disproportionate amount of trans women who have been convicted of sexual offences against women and whom have been placed in the female prison estate, statistically female prisoners would be housed with fewer sexual offenders if they were placed in the male prison estate.

And of course, there's the transwomen who become men again almost immediately after leaving prison, as seen in research involving Scottish prisons.

And transgender wings have been tried. Transwomen didn't like them. No validation.

I read the article but didn't see where it specified this rapist is now in a MALE prison?

That is largely what happens now, in English/ Welsh prisons. Most TG prisoners are held on the vulnerable prisoners' wing. Most of them, to be fair, are held there anyway because they are mostly sex offenders.

I would like to see Discovereads evidence for the epidemic of rape in English female prisons.

Unfortunately, in Scotland, our prison service seems to have no compunctions against placing males who have committed sex crimes against women into the female estate -

'According to figures, 12 trans prisoners who were convicted of violence or sexual crimes have been accommodated in Scottish women's jails within the last year and a half.' (Article from 2021).

www.scottishdailyexpress.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anger-trans-inmates-revert-males-25840252

And the answer to this is to make prisons mixed sex?

I've never quite understood why TRA's think an appropriate response to women being raped by male prison guards or being sexually assaulted by other female inmates is to push for more males to be added to the female prison estate in the form of males who (entirely co-incidentally of course) identify as women.

I know. Of all the crap TRA arguments, it really is one of the crappest - up there with 'your toilet at home is mixed sex'...

Housed in a separate wing or block, you say? Well, that’s quite easy to do if you separate by sex… isn’t it?