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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Guide Association settles with Katie Alcock

123 replies

GrimDamnFanjo · 19/04/2022 18:13

I thought this deserves a thread of its own.

Well done!

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=mobile.twitter.com/wontsomeonethi2/status/1516374537126002691?t=N6mKy04rpaiNyX9jmwKM6A&s=19

OP posts:
KoalasNext15km · 19/04/2022 18:22

Sounds good - but it's difficult not to be angry about the way the Guides prolonged the case and pushed up the costs.

I contributed to the crowdfunder; I hope some money will go towards other GC cases now.

Original poster
GrimDamnFanjo · 19/04/2022 18:23

@KoalasNext15km yes Katie has said she will be redistributing the surplus.

OP posts:
Original poster
GrimDamnFanjo · 19/04/2022 18:23

sex-matters.org/posts/single-sex-services/girlguiding-settles/

Statement from Sex Matters.

OP posts:
OvaHere · 19/04/2022 18:30

I'm pleased for Katie because she's obviously been through a lot.

Quite clearly GG's intend to continue as a mixed sex space by including males whilst still claiming they are an organisation for girls.

I suspect GG will think this is a win for them because they've conceded very little but all they've really achieved is kicking the can down the road. Sooner or later their policies will seriously bite them if they don't apply safeguarding protocol as a mixed sex group (which they now are).

Original poster
GrimDamnFanjo · 19/04/2022 18:34

I'm hoping that there will be an opening up of how the organisation has changed.
I'm pretty sure my daughters unit volunteers have no idea all this has been going on...

OP posts:
SpinningMeSoftly · 19/04/2022 18:38

What Katie has achieved is extremely important, by making GG's stance a matter of public record.

They cannot now hide behind an ignorance defence.

I would not want a DD or DGD to become a GG currently. I would encourage the joining of a different organisation that has mixed-sex safeguarding protocols, as per @OvaHere's post.

theemperorhasnoclothes · 19/04/2022 18:48

It really begs the question, now they've admitted they're mixed sex, about what the benefits of joining GG are compared the the Scouts.

The Scouts are honestly mixed-sex. Don't hide this from parents. Presumably do appropriate and above board safeguarding risk assessments for things like overnight stays. So why not just join the Scouts instead?

I hope this means GG will stop lying - even by omission - about the fact that they're mixed sex and the implications for adults supervising and overnight accommodation. I guess we'll see.

PegasusReturns · 19/04/2022 18:56

Have no idea what has happened - could you explain?

As a lawyer, Katie’s statement appears to be the sort that one agrees to under duress. There’s nothing in it that clearly indicates the changes that GG will make it how the settlement helps girls

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 19/04/2022 18:58

@PegasusReturns

Have no idea what has happened - could you explain?

As a lawyer, Katie’s statement appears to be the sort that one agrees to under duress. There’s nothing in it that clearly indicates the changes that GG will make it how the settlement helps girls

That's kind of how I read it, IANAL.

I want to be optimistic...

MrsOvertonsWindow · 19/04/2022 18:59

Well done Katie. At least with openness, parents can be clear that their daughters will be sharing private spaces with men and boys who self identify as women and girls and then make their own decisions. And as OvaHere points out, that openness will enable important discussions to be had about whether a magical transformation to a woman makes a man a safe adult to share showers and sleeping accommodation with girls.

OvaHere · 19/04/2022 19:00

@PegasusReturns

Have no idea what has happened - could you explain?

As a lawyer, Katie’s statement appears to be the sort that one agrees to under duress. There’s nothing in it that clearly indicates the changes that GG will make it how the settlement helps girls

GG put out their own statement.

www.girlguiding.org.uk/about-us/press-releases/girlguiding-settlement-statement/

ExMachinaDeus · 19/04/2022 19:07

It's great news. Congratulations, Dr Alcock!

But Dr Alcock is still being publicly defamed on her university's facebook page. I don't know how she copes. She must be made of steel.

FlibbertyGiblets · 19/04/2022 19:11

Well done Katie et al.

Lovelyricepudding · 19/04/2022 19:16

I think it is important to remember the limitations of Katie''s case. If I remember correctly this was a discrimination case? If so the GG have agreed they discriminated against her, agreed she should be free to state to members that she believes sex is immutable and have offered her the opportunity to rejoin. So that sounds like a win to me (though I would also hope for some financial agreement but that may be confidential). Katie's case was never going to be able to force GG back to single sex.

Beamur · 19/04/2022 19:20

Well done Katie..I think this is an important concession from GG.

Justkeeppedaling · 19/04/2022 19:23

GG's statement says "sex and gender are different, and will reflect this in the language we use"

So that's a win.

Monitaurus · 19/04/2022 19:29

They could at least have talked about being a home for transboys/ transmen. But no, welcome to anybody trans which is not moving their position at all.

ResisterRex · 19/04/2022 19:47

I read the GG statement and Katie's tweets. I can't understand if it's a good outcome or not. As PP said, it almost feels like she's had to do it under duress. I wonder what she's allowed to say or not say about the case. A no holds barred interview in one of the Sundays would be good maybe.

Personally I feel GG, along with other ones like Fawcett, deserve to fold over this stuff. It's a betrayal I can't and won't forgive.

WorkingItOutAsIGo · 19/04/2022 19:50

This does nothing to make me feel better of GG. What I see in place after place is the trans movement destroying valuable women only spaces that we fought for decades to have. Soon there will be nowhere public for us and we will retreat into the home and private gatherings. That must be the intention. It’s no different from the worst fundamentalist religion.

lifeturnsonadime · 19/04/2022 19:56

That Girl Guiding Statement is interesting.

It is obviously going to continue to include trans girls but now that it recognises that sex and gender are different.

I wonder what it means by this statement? We are committed to balancing the views, needs and wants of all of our members in a complex and changing world. It’s important that we do this in a thoughtful and respectful way, reflecting our volunteer code of conduct. So we have a diversity and inclusion strategic plan which underpins our commitment to inclusion. Presumably this is a nod to providing single sex provision for Guide Camps etc. If not it's meaningless.

tabbycatstripy · 19/04/2022 19:56

We are going to have to deal somehow with situations where people disagree, without people losing their jobs. That’s healthy. Some people believe something different to me and I accept that.

But ultimately the law is going to have to step in and actually stop orgs like GG from accommodating young girls with boys and men.

Whatsnewpussyhat · 19/04/2022 20:02

@Monitaurus

They could at least have talked about being a home for transboys/ transmen. But no, welcome to anybody trans which is not moving their position at all.
Exactly. They should be welcome to all FEMALES, regardless of any identity. That is inclusive to trans people. Girls that would probably most benefit from a single sex environment.

Anyone male should rightfully be told no, not for you, off you pop somewhere else to get your validation feelz.

Lovelyricepudding · 19/04/2022 20:06

@tabbycatstripy

We are going to have to deal somehow with situations where people disagree, without people losing their jobs. That’s healthy. Some people believe something different to me and I accept that.

But ultimately the law is going to have to step in and actually stop orgs like GG from accommodating young girls with boys and men.

I agree but this case was never going to do that. Like the Webberley tribunals or Harrying Millers non crimes, these cases are dealing with the impact of this ideology not the ideology itself.
WorkingItOutAsIGo · 19/04/2022 20:21

Actually, and with the caveat that IANAL, isn’t what we need is a brave young lad, like the incredible girls who have spearheaded legal cases, to sue GG for not letting him join as they are treating him differently from other boys, since trans girls only have discrimination protection relative to boys without a trans characteristic? I would dig for that.

NitroNine · 19/04/2022 20:50

Girlguiding’s “specialist safeguarding team” couldn’t find their collective arses with a map, compasses, extremely detailed instructions, all hands & the pinpoint-accuracy “Find Your Arse” app.

Am absolutely delighted for Katie - even if she doesn’t want to return as a volunteer, her daughter will be able to join as a young member with Katie to provide the additional support she needs, which is something they’d previously hoped for, I know.

And yes, @WorkingItOutAsIGo: those wee lads whose mothers [used to?] occasionally post on MN about how they want to be Brownies not Cubs - absolutely Girlguiding are discriminating against them & deserve dragging through the courts for it.