Jess Phillips says a woman can't have a penis and that sex and gender are two different things

[bellinisurge]

Here twitter.com/talktv/status/1514542152885452804?s=21&t=g7M6M2EAFww7ZBC6MK5mFQ

Will she get a back lash for this, I wonder?

I see the swear finder general has turned up for a bit more derailing. Stop policing women's speech and get another hobby FFS.

So no opinion of your own the hawkins you're just here to police what others are saying. Gotcha 👍

@bellinisurge

"I already admitted I stand corrected on the swearing point, and my intentions were just asking posters why they curse and heckle, rather than engage with the ops question."

I'm the op. I don't mind a bit of fucking swearing. This shit tries the patience of a saint.

Fair point op, hope you have a productive, and insightful debate overall, apologies for any inconvenience on my part.

Although to all, how is asking why you do x behaviour equate to trying to control x behaviour ?

How asking a person why they do swear, equate to trying to control the behaviour ?

I am not obliged to moderate my language for your benefit and I do not owe you an explanation for the words I choose to use.

You have taken up quite enough space derailing this thread. I will not be responding again.

Here we go. Women, you may have opinions only after you've been sufficiently naice and polite enough to be permitted to be heard.

Otherwise Daddy shall be very disappointed and shall sadly have to deny you equality and civil rights for being silly girls.

Fuck that.

Some posters would be happier on the Times Comments where they can scold women and misogynise to their little hearts' content. Here we do women's rights. Help or get out of the way.

And you really have to wonder about someone who cannot find anything to beef about in what's being said, so has to whittle about it not being said sweetly enough.

Again, I say fuck that.

@Absurdle

at oxford was you taught subject-verb agreement?

I bow down in your general direction. Great post.

@Artichokeleaves

And you really have to wonder about someone who cannot find anything to beef about in what's being said, so has to whittle about it not being said sweetly enough.

Again, I say fuck that.

Is it time to apply Chaos Defrost to the thread yet?

Get a fucking grip Hawkins and it's Oxford.

I also can't take Jess Phillips seriously now, she could have been a consistent force for good for women, like Rosie Duffield, but instead she's been self-serving and waited until the tide has begun to turn before speaking up. Cowardly in a politician imo and also in a fucking human being. Have the courage of your convictions Jess!

To get back to the discussion, which I thought was interesting: it sounds to me as if this is a result of the Labour Party realising they have made complete and utter fools of themselves. But it doesn't sound as if they want to admit, or even understand yet, just why so many of us are so pissed off with them.

So, much as I would like to be reconciled with them in time for the next general election, this won't do.

@Sillydoggy

I don't think there is any u turning, unfortunately. I think that Labour believe they can con women into thinking they have changed by these small linguistic concessions. People like JP are definitely being sanctioned to say there is a difference between sex and gender but at no point is anyone in Labour (xpt for Rosie Duffield) saying sex is more important than gender and single sex spaces are for one sex only.

This is just smoke and mirrors.

This is all of it.

Of course, the Tories lie like they breathe air. Trying to parse out why it makes me so much more angry when Labour lie.

I wonder if it's the difference between being robbed by a pickpocket and being robbed by a priest.

You expect the first one to fleece you; at least they don't preach at you while they're doing it. Is it that?

@Artichokeleaves

Here we go. Women, you may have opinions only after you've been sufficiently naice and polite enough to be permitted to be heard.

Otherwise Daddy shall be very disappointed and shall sadly have to deny you equality and civil rights for being silly girls.

Fuck that.

Some posters would be happier on the Times Comments where they can scold women and misogynise to their little hearts' content. Here we do women's rights. Help or get out of the way.

TBF the Times is quite pro women and the comments are always pro single sex spaces from what I've seen.

Oh you get a few in amongst the good comments: the kind of 'if you silly girls had just stayed in your box and not wanted equality this wouldn't have happened to you would it? So don't look at me for sympathy' kind of poster.

Of course, the Tories lie like they breathe air. Trying to parse out why it makes me so much more angry when Labour lie.

I'm more angry when Labour lie too. I think it because they promise more so I expect more and feel disappointment when their words turn out to be empty.

Where as; the Tories lie tell me something I don't know.

@Artichokeleaves

Oh you get a few in amongst the good comments: the kind of 'if you silly girls had just stayed in your box and not wanted equality this wouldn't have happened to you would it? So don't look at me for sympathy' kind of poster.

I've not noticed those, but I do tend to order by recommended so I can see the majority opinion.

Hawkins001, I remember Justine talking about a conference she went to for chat site owners / moderators, where it turned out that Mumsnet was the only site represented there that allowed swearing. All the others were quite agog at that, as I recall.

I think you’re honestly onto a loser here, it’s one of MN’s unique selling points. The Economist even did a chart during lockdown measuring how the use of ‘fuck’ or ‘FFS’ spiked on MN every time school closures were announced.

@sashagabadon

Didn’t we use to say female-only spaces not woman-only spaces? I think using “woman” when previously linguistically you would use “female” is just the latest trick to fool us.

I think this is the crux of it all

If we stop using the word woman/women as the way to describe sport/single sex spaces prisons etc and use the word female, it’s a much clearer point to make.

Woman = adult human female

It shouldn’t make a difference. But, I agree, I think people are trying to play linguistic games to avoid agreeing to maintain single sex spaces, sports etc.

@EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn

Hawkins001, I remember Justine talking about a conference she went to for chat site owners / moderators, where it turned out that Mumsnet was the only site represented there that allowed swearing. All the others were quite agog at that, as I recall.

I think you’re honestly onto a loser here, it’s one of MN’s unique selling points. The Economist even did a chart during lockdown measuring how the use of ‘fuck’ or ‘FFS’ spiked on MN every time school closures were announced.

Fair point, I think I need to review my perspectives. Much appreciated for the information.

@EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn

Hawkins001, I remember Justine talking about a conference she went to for chat site owners / moderators, where it turned out that Mumsnet was the only site represented there that allowed swearing. All the others were quite agog at that, as I recall.

I think you’re honestly onto a loser here, it’s one of MN’s unique selling points. The Economist even did a chart during lockdown measuring how the use of ‘fuck’ or ‘FFS’ spiked on MN every time school closures were announced.

That chart is fantastic.

For the women of Mumsnet:

chiswickgiftco.co.uk/collections/remind-you-of-anyone/products/somewhat-sweary-remarkably-articulate-mug

If we stop using the word woman/women as the way to describe sport/single sex spaces prisons etc and use the word female, it’s a much clearer point to make

But now TRA's have stopped using transwoman and started using trans female so they can still pretend that when we say female sports and spaces it somehow includes them.

Whatever we call ourselves they will appropriate it.

Fair point, I think I need to review my perspectives. Much appreciated for the information.

You’re welcome.

Can a man have a vulva? A trans man obviously can.

Can a non-binary person have a vulva? A penis? They clearly can have either, because non-binary is a pure identity having nothing to do with biological sex.

The problem is that two different definitions of 'women and girls' and 'men and boys' are mashed together all the time when activists write about these issues.

Either 'women and girls' refers to biological sex or it does not. When it does refer to biological sex adding 'women and girls' and 'men and boys' to a list which ALSO includes non-binary immediately turns it back into a term describing an identity only.

It's that non-binary label which collapses the edifice Phillips is trying to build here. If I write about the reproductive rights of women, some non-binary female-bodied person will immediately complain about their needs being forgotten, and if I answer that I use the term in its biological definition they protest that they are not 'women' because they don't identify as such.

So it is a battle to try to hold on to the meanings of the words, not just a battle to distinguish natal women from trans women in contexts where that matters.

And this is what is happening now.

If I thought Jess Philips was at all genuine I might have some hope for Labour. I used to admire her - but I have watched her slippery language as she tries to 'say the right thing' and be seen as a one of the good guys.

She's a weasel IMO, lacking the moral fibre to genuinely stand up for women. She picks the easy causes, the ones that no one would dare disagree with her about. "Dead women" ? of course WE ALL deplore the murder of women, uncontroversial - but when she is tasked with REALLY looking at the current threats to women's safety, she caves. If she is able to join the dots and see what's going on she is too afraid to say it. Now the tide is turning she's hedging her bets 😡