Times on Sex Matters survey: 8 in 10 teachers say their secondary school has trans or non-binary pupils

[ResisterRex]

This is in today's paper and states again that Dept for Education is working on the guidelines.

8 in 10 teachers say their secondary school has trans pupils

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f2a3bcfe-b906-11ec-94e5-2197dead5942?shareToken=429e243ebe8065bf8d9d275c535357a9

"Asked what they thought had contributed to students’ altered identity, approximately 60 per cent of secondary school teachers cited there being trans or non-binary celebrities in the media. About 80 per cent said their school would refer to a pupil by their chosen name and pronouns if asked by a trans or non-binary student and their parent."

And

"A spokesman for the Department for Education said yesterday: “We recognise that gender identity can be a complex and sensitive topic for schools to navigate.

“We know many teachers are having these important conversations with their pupils, including through the relationship, sex and health education curriculum which is designed to foster respect for others in a way that respects everyone’s views.

“We will be working with the Equalities and Human Rights Commission as we consider our next steps for supporting schools in this area.”"

For the love of god walksen, listen to what we're saying.

You started off saying this is not being taught in schools. It is. It's been taught to you! The equality act is explicit about what homosexuality means, and it's based on sex. Not gender.

Lesbians do not have penises. Young lesbian girls are being persecuted and told they are wrong for being same-sex attracted.

This is happening.

You've even tried to invoke section 28! You've used homosexuality and the persecution of gay men and women, as a means to bolster your argument. When actually, your argument doesn't believe in homosexuality.

I understand that you might be new to this. And I understand that you may not have encountered it much in the wild, as it were. And as a supply teacher I can also understand, although I disagree, you not wanting to get involved.

But don't, for the love of God, come on here and tell off the parents of children who are suffering, as a result of this ideology.

Make yourself more aware. Understand the part, however small, you are playing in this.

‘On both counts,like it or not, the people/ bodies that matter disagree with you.’

The DfE agrees with me. Watch.

Totally agree with the comment about the schools promoting this - posters, events and special days. Its appalling indoctrination and most people don't believe it but have silenced by this phobic allegation - parents have been alienated if they don't agree with the agenda. It is appalling how the minority have taken a hold

My 14 year old daughter says that children who don't fall in line with the trans ideology are bullied and called names by other students. She says that they are saying that JK Rowling is evil.

What do our teachers here say to that? Is that acceptable? Is it acceptable that children are accusing other children of being transphobic for saying that biological sex is real?
Is it acceptable that they are bullying other children and saying that JK Rowling is evil? Is it acceptable that children are being silenced by their classmates?

On both counts,like it or not, the people/ bodies that matter disagree with you.

So what?

We are parents who are actively engaged with making positive changes. Positive changes through attempting to force 'neutrality' in how facts around this issue is taught. Tolerance is important yes.

However, let's keep remembering Dr Hilary Cass' statement that even social transitioning is not a neutral intervention.

Do you agree that it is not a neutral intervention?

Do you agree that the current guidance may actually be wrong where local authorities have adopted 'affirming' only practices?

Do you agree that when the Cass report is finally published, that guidance is likely to change? Of course, if that happens, all of a sudden what we have been saying here will actually be mirroring guidance?

Why are you so entrenched in believing that parents and posters on this thread are wrong and the schools have it 'right'? It really seems to be either entrenchment or naivety. I am not sure which at this point.

‘It really seems to be either entrenchment or naivety. I am not sure which at this point.’

Zealotry. Nobody who wasn’t 100% convinced by this stuff would ignore the things parents are saying here.

"You've even tried to invoke section 28!

Only in the sense that I disagree with trans issues being ignored as this obviously impacts trans pupils in schools, who do exist as this whole thread attests.

Again I would refute that teaching about trans issues would cause someone to become trans. From what posters here have said if you do you are by default a trans activist. I find it hard to believe that schools teaching about trans issues is the root cause of the trans pupils issues.

And again I will get slated for this too but does yelling people about homosexuality make it more likely they become gay or just make them and others more accepting of who they are?

I see teaching trans issues as a similar situation . If there was definitive evidence it was systematically harmful then it wouldn't be happening would it?

walksen

Did you know that children's identity clinics have seen a 4000% increase in referrals in the last few years? Did you know that the overwhelming majority of these are girls? Did you know that the Tavistock had 35 clinicians resign in short space of time because they were so worried about what they were doing to children? Particularly whether they were, transing away the gay?

Once you realise this is being taught in schools, by people like yourself, who believe men can be lesbians, isn't your conscience even a tiny bit pricked?

‘And again I will get slated for this too but does yelling people about homosexuality make it more likely they become gay or just make them and others more accepting of who they are?’

Begging the question. Some people are gay and we know this isn’t a choice and is - as far as we know - innate.

We don’t know anything of the kind about gender identity. We know, in fact, that about 85% of adolescents who present to hospitals with gender dysphoria (so quite a high bar) will not be transgender adults.

So basically, what are you on about?

Again I would refute that teaching about trans issues would cause someone to become trans.

What do you mean by 'become trans?'

Thousands of young women think they're men, because either they fancy women, or they're gender nonconforming, or guess what, they're a bit masculine.

If you're a supply teacher, surely to God, you've heard of the pro ana sites, which promotes anorexia? You've heard of the social contagion involved in self harming?

What do you actually mean by become trans? Make someone have gender dysphoria?

A young woman was writing her narrative about wanting to have bottom surgery.

She didn't have it. And turns out, she finally realised it's because her father had been raping her and she wanted to remove the part of her anatomy that he had been using.

Is she 'trans'?

How do you account for the statistic that 30% of the children showing up at gender clinics are autistic? Are they all 'trans'?

Strewth.

If there was definitive evidence it was systematically harmful then it wouldn't be happening would it?

For fuck's sake. Have you not even heard of Keira Bell? Who took the Tavistock to judicial review?

Or David Bell? No relation to Keira, but on the board of the Tavistock? Who has whistleblown and talked long and passionately about what they're doing to children?

www.google.com/amp/s/theparadise.ng/tavistock-gender-clinic-not-safe-for-children-nhs-report-finds/amp/

The Tavistock clinic, run by the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust, England’s lone specialist clinic for children and youths who are confused about their gender, was found to be performing services that are “not safe or viable,”

The fact is most teachers haven't heard of Keira Bell or Dr David Bell, or Sonia Appleby. Most teachers are still at the point of 'be kind' and think being trans is just the same as being gay. Most haven't thought beyond that. In that sense I agree with Walksen. Most teachers aren't activists, they just haven't thought it through and have accepted everything they have been told they 'should' think and teach on surface level.

"You've even tried to invoke section 28!

Only in the sense that I disagree with trans issues being ignored as this obviously impacts trans pupils in schools, who do exist as this whole thread attests.

No one is denying children and teens are declaring trans identities. No one. And you have not provided any evidence that they are being ignored at all. You have attempted to misrepresent posts on this thread by invoking it though.

Again I would refute that teaching about trans issues would cause someone to become trans. From what posters here have said if you do you are by default a trans activist. I find it hard to believe that schools teaching about trans issues is the root cause of the trans pupils issues.

No. However, teaching 'trans issues' can cause distress and harm to very young children when they are led to believe that a) they are in the wrong body and can change 'sex'. and b) they are also taught to accept people's identities as 'being the same as' some one of the opposite sex. So, being taught that a transitioned male is 'exactly like' a female. And lowering boundaries.

And again I will get slated for this too but does yelling people about homosexuality make it more likely they become gay or just make them and others more accepting of who they are?

Please copy and paste any posters who have said this. Because let's have that discussion otherwise. Otherwise, it really seems it is YOU feeding in your preconceptions of posters on this board into your posts. I believe that is a tactic called 'straw manning'.

I see teaching trans issues as a similar situation . If there was definitive evidence it was systematically harmful then it wouldn't be happening would it?

Well... let's go through this. How long has it been taught in schools? Primary? Secondary?

Have you actually read the interim report from Dr Hilary Cass at all? Because she has come out and said to the world at large what we have been saying on this board for years. The impact of 'affirming only' treatment and practices will not be properly able to be assessed for around another 5 years.

In the meantime, it is actually valid for parents to ask to what degree is teaching children and teens that people can change sex (by confusing children about what sex and gender is, and lack of being actually able to clearly define gender).

And don't forget, it was parents and concerned groups that got the current guidance changed to remove that very harmful concept of being 'born in the wrong body'. No school is allowed to teach that.

So, are you prepared to keep teaching materials that parents are raising valid concerns about and supporting the social transitioning of children without their parents knowledge, knowing that parents are saying harm is being caused and that it will be another five years to see the extent of what is actually occurring in the schools (you are being told what is happening in schools other than your own)?

‘Most teachers aren't activists, they just haven't thought it through and have accepted everything they have been told they 'should' think and teach on surface level.’

When I taught teachers were constantly nitpicking things they were instructed to teach. I never had a single colleague tell me men could literally become women. This stuff was just creeping into schools. I think teachers are cowed by worrying about losing their jobs, and intervention by the DfE will be an enormous relief.

I can readily believe that most teachers don't know about this stuff, but then most teachers aren't coming on here and telling off the women who do.

Most teachers aren't activists, they just haven't thought it through and have accepted everything they have been told they 'should' think and teach on surface level.

Yes. But most teachers did not come onto a thread and start discussing Section 28 and making false comparisons, tell parents that they are conspiracy theorist and offensive. Or liars.

And also mention a parent who seemed to be getting into abusive territory with their child as another comparison to what parents are like when they try to discuss teaching around this issue with schools and their concerns around schools social transitioning their children.

All the while implying that parents discussing this issue are ignorant haters.

Because that is what has happened here on this thread.

This other thread could also be quite relevant to this one.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4526569-This-charity-is-delivering-sex-education-in-schools

@walksen

"You've even tried to invoke section 28!

Only in the sense that I disagree with trans issues being ignored as this obviously impacts trans pupils in schools, who do exist as this whole thread attests.

Again I would refute that teaching about trans issues would cause someone to become trans. From what posters here have said if you do you are by default a trans activist. I find it hard to believe that schools teaching about trans issues is the root cause of the trans pupils issues.

And again I will get slated for this too but does yelling people about homosexuality make it more likely they become gay or just make them and others more accepting of who they are?

I see teaching trans issues as a similar situation . If there was definitive evidence it was systematically harmful then it wouldn't be happening would it?

I understand why you're trying to comfort yourself with these assertions and don't wish to address the issue that you may, subconsciously, and while teaching the materials, have been more indoctrinated with a particular ideology and perspective than you care to think. You may also have allowed yourself to be misled as to what constitutes a decent evidence base.

Look at your recasting of perspectives and distortion of vocabulary when you summarise the responses of posters on this thread. Look at Lifton's 8 Criteria for Thought Reform and question your responses in light of them. Consider how readily, as per the Havel quotation, you so readily abdicated responsibility for the material you're teaching.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Reform_and_the_Psychology_of_Totalism

It is painful when this happens. It's like realising that you have not just one set of scales on your eyes but layer upon layer of them.

Just catching up with this thread and it is really is quite startling to see a teacher arriving on this thread like some early 20th century missionary, and displaying such naked contempt towards the experiences and concerns of parents.

Not typical of the profession I am sure but even so.

‘arriving on this thread like some early 20th century missionary, and displaying such naked contempt towards the experiences and concerns of parents.’

Proselytising, basically.

@Floisme

Just catching up with this thread and it is really is quite startling to see a teacher arriving on this thread like some early 20th century missionary, and displaying such naked contempt towards the experiences and concerns of parents.

Not typical of the profession I am sure but even so.

Most of my social group are in education.

The ones I have spoken to about this all share my views(although they didn't realise having basic safeguarding responsibilities and common sense made them gc- they had no idea knowing sex matters was a radical opinion).

I know one person who I suspect supports this ideology in education. I'm basing this on the fact that they love Drag Race and called JK Rowling controversial and suggested my concern about a teen relative pursuing mastectomy was pearl clutching. (Roll my eyes hard, they have daughters) They're not in an area of education that requires much critical thinking though and certainly have shown they have huge gaps in other areas of safeguarding and pedagogy.

I, and many others in education though, am silent because of the current climate of what happens to those that raise their heads above the parapet.

The shouty be kind ones appear to be more numerous because they can shout their half baked ideas with impunity.

I would guess there are overall more teachers concerned than pushing it. However, there are a lot of people who don't give it space and just blondy spout bekind.

I, and many others in education though, am silent because of the current climate of what happens to those that raise their heads above the parapet.

Is it possible at all to work with the school if something is clearly against the Dept of Ed Sept 2020 guidance though?

@BelleTheBananas

Additionally, I believe that female autism/ADHD presentation should be more widely discussed and disseminated in schools (and society in general). If people understood how anxiety/sensory issues/fear of change/not fitting in manifested themselves in teenage girls (E.g. anorexia, gender dysphoria), we could help them understand their feelings and thought processes, rather than letting them find out for themselves from people on TikTok who don’t have their best interests at heart.

This. Awareness is very low

@WeDontTalkAboutYouKnow

It’s interesting to hear your perspective, because almost all of my colleagues are quite vocal about framing this issue as safeguarding. Ultimately, it trumps any ideology. I’m even able to (gently) challenge the children who shout down JKR or invoke transphobia at every turn (by giving them alternative perspectives, not by speaking my brains, teachers aren’t allowed to do that, obvs). It could be the age profile of the staff? We are mainly 35+ and parents ourselves, although younger colleagues are also on board, in the main.

We know as teachers that kids are easily swayed by the latest trend. In some cohorts (white, middle class girls, mainly), this has been trending for the past decade and I would say the next few years will see a decline (although I’m concerned about what will replace it). Prior to 2012, I met only one child in school who had socially transitioned, who had autism and other associated difficulties.

We have to lead on this, and we are supported in law.

The school I teach in is very working class and has a great mix of different religions & ethnicities (even though we are a Catholic school). We currently have 1 NB pupil. From speaking to other colleagues in different schools and council areas, I do feel like trans/NB identities are more common in more affluent areas... just a personal opinion though.

Even in my school we have a couple of teacher that tried to push the anti-JKR narrative, both were shut down very shifty simply by being asked to highlight exactly where she said anything transphobic. And these were English teachers who you would think have some grasp of reading comprehension!