Times on Sex Matters survey: 8 in 10 teachers say their secondary school has trans or non-binary pupils

[ResisterRex]

This is in today's paper and states again that Dept for Education is working on the guidelines.

8 in 10 teachers say their secondary school has trans pupils

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/f2a3bcfe-b906-11ec-94e5-2197dead5942?shareToken=429e243ebe8065bf8d9d275c535357a9

"Asked what they thought had contributed to students’ altered identity, approximately 60 per cent of secondary school teachers cited there being trans or non-binary celebrities in the media. About 80 per cent said their school would refer to a pupil by their chosen name and pronouns if asked by a trans or non-binary student and their parent."

And

"A spokesman for the Department for Education said yesterday: “We recognise that gender identity can be a complex and sensitive topic for schools to navigate.

“We know many teachers are having these important conversations with their pupils, including through the relationship, sex and health education curriculum which is designed to foster respect for others in a way that respects everyone’s views.

“We will be working with the Equalities and Human Rights Commission as we consider our next steps for supporting schools in this area.”"

@walksen

"can you not see me or something"

Of course I can't see you you are posting on an internet forum FFS.

I think you need to read the material you posted more carefully. In particular educate yourself on the differenc between sex and gender. You are posting on the feminism board after all.

oh my. you're getting cross

i have read the material

1. it teaches 'gender identity' as if it were an undisputed fact that it's exists
2. it used to say there are 'clearly' more than 2 sexes
3. it conflates people with disorders of sexual development with people who identify as trans and tried to imply that those born with DSDs are neither male nor female
4. it buys wholesale into the concept of a gendered brain, something which never goes well for women

why don't you read it?

‘In particular educate yourself on the difference between sex and gender. You are posting on the feminism board after all.’

Why don’t you educate us right now?

What is gender?

Where is it located in the human biological system?

What evidence is there that it is innate?

How many genders are there?

Please, we’re all listening.

Please, we’re all listening.

Ok. Finished. Did you hear it?

@walksen

Please, we’re all listening.

Ok. Finished. Did you hear it?

and we should take your arguments seriously?

right you are

you're losing your temper. I suggest stepping away from the keyboard

@walksen

Please, we’re all listening.

Ok. Finished. Did you hear it?

Enough to have substantial concerns about your reading comprehension and your claimed familiarity with the material that you claim to be teaching…

Well, I don’t know about anyone else but I feel ready for my exam.

although if this individual really is a teacher....

deary, deary me

I thought this could be the one thread that a definition of terms were actually given. One that went beyond stereotypes akd circular definitions so we couos all be proven wrong.

What a wasted opportunity

I think you need to read my post more carefully.

You wrote this:

It is disturbing on here to see posters on this thread describing schools are cults apparently full of activists, manipulating mentally ill teenage girls, whilst apparently concealing this from their parents.

Section 28 banned discussions of homosexuality which was enormously harmful to gay people and allowed homophobic attitudes to flourish. Even if you believes y pupils identifying as trans are in some sort of mental health crisis and will change their minds in the future the fact remains that some pupils may be trans and we should not demonise their choices, or ignore it like some dirty little secret.

From the context of your post you have clearly show disparagement towards students with mental health issues. Your use of 'mentally ill teenage girls', and 'some sort of mental health crisis' hardly comes across as supporting the mental health issues these students have. I read this as either you don't believe that these children and teens have poor mental health, and/or that they are vulnerable to manipulation because of it.

I notice there is no acknowledgment that schools are far too busy dealing with these issues and pandemic fallout to take part in such a grand conspiracy? Who is leading it? Bill gates?

As an active PTA member, I am quite well aware of the issues my teen's school is dealing with. And again, it is you who keep using the language 'conspiracy'. We are stating that there are instances the schools and teachers are not doing their jobs around this issue.

It is you who are trying to paint legitimate concerns as 'conspiracies' as a way to distract from and minimise those concerns.

) it teaches 'gender identity' as if it were an undisputed fact that it's exists

Schools often use simplified models to teach pupils difficult concepts.
2) it used to say there are 'clearly' more than 2 sexes

I fail to see how this matters as you can't change sex anyway

3. it conflates people with disorders of sexual development with people who identify as trans and tried to imply that those born with DSDs are neither male nor female.

I fail to see how this indoctrinates young girls into transboys/men. Teachers have professional judgement and can amend said documents when discussing with a class.

4. it buys wholesale into the concept of a gendered brain, something which never goes well for women

Again a simplified model which is easier to explain to pupils but a teacher can talk around these issues.

all of these points are, as a previous poster said, a distraction. I still fail to see how this represents a conspiracy or suggests to pupils they need to think and review their own identity. It is simply a model for how to relate to trans people they come across in their lives and at school. I mean the discussions on this thread had got a little heated because I disagree with your world view but the document is teaching kids about the world view of trans people in order to promote tolerance.

It is not trying to convince them that trans people world view is wrong or that they themselves should become trans

"From the context of your post you have clearly show disparagement towards students with mental health issues. Your use of 'mentally ill teenage girls', and 'some sort of mental health crisis'"

More disparagement towards the idea that we treat girls or even boys thinking about their gender identity as mentally ill and they will come to their senses when their crisis is over, which also minimises the young person's feelings.

Its also reminicent of the idea that being homosexual was an illness that could be treated/ cured by coversion therapy etc.

‘It is simply a model for how to relate to trans people they come across in their lives and at school. I mean the discussions on this thread had got a little heated because I disagree with your world view but the document is teaching kids about the world view of trans people in order to promote tolerance.’

It doesn’t teach a world view. It teaches it as fact. Teaching a world view means you use language like, ‘Some people believe that...’

More disparagement towards the idea that we treat girls or even boys thinking about their gender identity as mentally ill and they will come to their senses when their crisis is over, which also minimises the young person's feelings.

What do you understand a 'gender identity' to be, and why do you think it is important?

@walksen

) it teaches 'gender identity' as if it were an undisputed fact that it's exists

Schools often use simplified models to teach pupils difficult concepts.
2) it used to say there are 'clearly' more than 2 sexes

I fail to see how this matters as you can't change sex anyway

3. it conflates people with disorders of sexual development with people who identify as trans and tried to imply that those born with DSDs are neither male nor female.

I fail to see how this indoctrinates young girls into transboys/men. Teachers have professional judgement and can amend said documents when discussing with a class.

4. it buys wholesale into the concept of a gendered brain, something which never goes well for women

Again a simplified model which is easier to explain to pupils but a teacher can talk around these issues.

all of these points are, as a previous poster said, a distraction. I still fail to see how this represents a conspiracy or suggests to pupils they need to think and review their own identity. It is simply a model for how to relate to trans people they come across in their lives and at school. I mean the discussions on this thread had got a little heated because I disagree with your world view but the document is teaching kids about the world view of trans people in order to promote tolerance.

It is not trying to convince them that trans people world view is wrong or that they themselves should become trans

Basically teachers need to teach something different than in their materials and need to use their own judgement on what they tell their students and what impact it has on them.

That has the potential to go horrible wrong, it leaves students open to indoctrination and teachers open to accusations of overstepping their boundaries. Who in earth can think this is a good way to go for either students or teachers?

It is very transcult 101: trust us, we will never make mistakes, we are above scrutiny, we are great, nothing will ever go wrong...

@walksen

) it teaches 'gender identity' as if it were an undisputed fact that it's exists

Schools often use simplified models to teach pupils difficult concepts.
2) it used to say there are 'clearly' more than 2 sexes

I fail to see how this matters as you can't change sex anyway

3. it conflates people with disorders of sexual development with people who identify as trans and tried to imply that those born with DSDs are neither male nor female.

I fail to see how this indoctrinates young girls into transboys/men. Teachers have professional judgement and can amend said documents when discussing with a class.

4. it buys wholesale into the concept of a gendered brain, something which never goes well for women

Again a simplified model which is easier to explain to pupils but a teacher can talk around these issues.

all of these points are, as a previous poster said, a distraction. I still fail to see how this represents a conspiracy or suggests to pupils they need to think and review their own identity. It is simply a model for how to relate to trans people they come across in their lives and at school. I mean the discussions on this thread had got a little heated because I disagree with your world view but the document is teaching kids about the world view of trans people in order to promote tolerance.

It is not trying to convince them that trans people world view is wrong or that they themselves should become trans

What do you think the Gi Joe spectrum teaching aid is exactly??

There is no evidence for gender identity. Its all based on stereotypes. How the hell else do you get from GI Joe at one end, and Barbie at the other??

And how does your 'gender identity' dictate which toilet you use?

The Girls is for Barbie girls and effeminate boys and the Boys for butch girls and masculine boys?

It suggests your pick which ever figure one you feel like, and then what? Choose your facilities based on that???

This was taught in schools up and down the country. Until women on here put a stop to it.

"It doesn’t teach a world view. It teaches it as fact"

It's more like a definition.

We also teach them that atoms are solid particles then that they are not and we completely ignore wave particle duality and wave functions because they are not capable of grasping the intricacies involved until they are older.

It's a framework they can grasp and over time the pedagogy will change and evolve but to claim schools using it area cult are ridiculous.

It doesn’t teach a world view. It teaches it as fact. Teaching a world view means you use language like, ‘Some people believe that...’

Yes, the idea of gender identity could be taught in this way:

'Some people believe they have a gender identity and they think this is a very important part of themselves.'

Instead of that, teaching materials use things like the gender unicorn, with explanations like this:

Gender Identity: One’s internal sense of being male, female, neither of these, both, or another gender(s). Everyone has a gender identity, including you.

transstudent.org/gender/

‘Schools often use simplified models to teach pupils difficult concepts.’

We’re adults here. We’re ready for the detail. What is gender identity, where is it situated, and why is it important?

‘We also teach them that atoms are solid particles then that they are not and we completely ignore wave particle duality and wave functions because they are not capable of grasping the intricacies involved until they are older.’

We are older. If you understand this and are teaching children a deliberately simplified model, fine.

Now explain it to us, the parents, so we can be more confident than we are that you are not as clueless about the meanings of these terms as everyone else appears to be, or lying.

"We’re adults here. We’re ready for the detail. What is gender identity, where is it situated, and why is it important?"

Perhaps you should role on a university course then and in the future provide your own models for schools to use.

I'm commenting here on what the approach is in schools and the models and material they use. Why are you trying to change the subject?

We aren't.

We just want a definition of what you are teaching that gender identity is. How we know we have one..what's a male identity. What's a female identity. What are the diagnostic criteria .

‘Perhaps you should role on a university course then and in the future provide your own models for schools to use.’

I did enrol on a university course. Then I taught in secondary education for ten years.

Perhaps you could explain to us, the parents of the children you say you teach, what you mean. Because we think you are talking nonsense with these terms, and feeding that nonsense to children as fact. And we are going to prevent that happening.

"What are the diagnostic criteria"

Why would any teacher need diagnostic criteria?

I've already said we do not make personal comments or apply these ideas to our students.

Examples of school resources and/or training I have seen/been instructed to use that teach gender identity as fact:

Jigsaw
EC Publishing
Educate
Ten:Ten
The Proud Trust
Bish
School of Sexuality

@walksen what resources does your school use? It would be great to know if there are resources out there which teach gender identity as a world view which needs to be respected in the same way we respect different faiths.

But the kids must tell you what they are basing their declaration of identity on?