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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Wish I was at this lunch

398 replies

bumpertobumper · 10/04/2022 19:52

How great would it be to hang out with "the witches they couldn't burn" GrinWine
Screenshot from Suzanne Moore's insta

Wish I was at this lunch
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44
AngelinaFibres · 11/04/2022 23:38

This reply has been deleted

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nepeta · 11/04/2022 23:49

Some of those trans activist Twitter threads are frightening, tbh. The issues there are framed entirely one-sided with good vs. evil the only alternatives.

nepeta · 11/04/2022 23:58

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Many activists, including India, have a personal definition of woman which goes like this, whether they recognise it or not, and they think: woman=that which (they think) straight men would most like to shag.

But our biological reality is not defined by reference to an external male gaze; if I live the rest of my life on a desert island and no man ever sees me again, I will still be female. India may be convinced that straight men would rather date India than the women at the lunch party, but even if India's right, it doesn't matter. Men's erections do not define us.

Wonderfully true. That's why 'performing femininity' is one of the proposed new definitions of how to define a 'woman.' If it's a performance, then anyone can join in it. But not performing at all (or not caring either way) then challenges that definition in very uncomfortable ways.
yourhairiswinterfire · 12/04/2022 00:14

.😍

Wish I was at this lunch
thirdfiddle · 12/04/2022 00:49

Loving the front page happy news story! Though feel I have somehow misestimated the significance of all this because I'd have never thought a bunch of likeminded women having lunch would be front page news.

I'm also loving that we can see a roomful of people who have been amazing voices for women, and still be going through long lists of women who could just as well be there but aren't on this occasion. There's no one person they could silence that would stop the rest speaking truth.

As for those looking at a roomful of happy, strong, intelligent women and commenting on their gender nonconformity or lack of perceived attractiveness!? Own goal mate, own goal. Reveals more about your biases than you realise.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 12/04/2022 02:45

You've all been very kind, so I'm going to plunge into my extended thoughts on the subject, and that'll teach you to say nice things on MN!

So we have this recurrent theme of activists claiming that gender-critical women owe their entire philosophical position to jealousy of male transitioners. We are told that transwomen look more like women than we do.

My initial response to this when I first saw it posted (maybe 3 years ago) was something along the lines of "but women are bombarded with lit, angled and airbrushed pictures of the most beautiful women in the world on every magazine cover and billboard. How is a picture of any male transitioner going to even register on the Richter Scale of Capitalistic Corporate Demoralisation of Women?"

Since then, I've seen this idea put forward frequently enough for me to think more deeply about it which is always bad news for everyone in my vicinity - including me - and I think this is Plato's Theory of Forms in the wild. I'm going to supply an extract on Plato now. The full webpage is longer than this, so do click through if the bit I've taken isn't quite making sense.

extract

The Platonic Forms, according to Plato, are just ideas of things that actually exist. They represent what each individual thing is supposed to be like in order for it to be that specific thing. For example, the Form of human shows qualities one must have in order to be human. It is a depiction of the idea of humanness. But no actual human is the perfect representation of the Form human. They are similar, but every human is different, and none are perfectly human.

According to Plato, every object or quality in reality has a Form: dogs, cats, humans, oceans, tables, colors, beauty, love, and courage. Form answers the question "What is that?" Plato went a step further in asking “what is Form itself?” Plato assumed that an object was essentially or "really" a manifestation of the Form and that the phenomena were mere shadows that mimicked the Form. This means that objects in reality are momentary portrayals of the Form under varying circumstances.

The “problem of universals,” or how can one Form in general be many things in particular, was solved by presuming that Form is a distinct singular thing that causes multiple representations of itself in particular objects.

According to Plato’s Theory of Forms, matter is considered particular in itself. For Plato, Forms are more real than any objects that imitate them. Though the Forms are timeless and unchanging, physical manifestations of Forms are in a constant state of change. Where Forms are unqualified perfection, physical objects are qualified and conditioned.

The Forms, according to Plato, are the essences of various objects. Forms are the qualities that an object must have to be considered that type of object. For example, there are countless chairs in the world but the Form of “chairness” is at the core of all chairs. Plato held that the world of Forms is transcendent to our own world, the world of substances, which is the essential basis of reality.

Though no one has ever seen a perfect circle, nor a perfectly straight line, everyone knows what a circle and a straight line are. Plato uses this as evidence that his Forms are real.

Continues: owlcation.com/humanities/An-Introduction-to-Platos-Theory-of-Forms

So Plato believed that we instinctively classified objects and living things, by how closely they hewed to perfect embodiments of their essences, called Forms, that existed outside time and space. I think we were supposed to be born, having already experienced the realm of the essences and its perfect ideal Forms of horses, cats and squares before we were born, but seriously, don't quote me on that. It's a long time since I had the time to read about classical Greek philosophy.

Anyway, this is what trans activists are doing. Where we think of being female as a messy, biological reality, they have a Form of what women should look like. The interior of the human being doesn't matter, it's strictly defined by an observer's assessment. We will call it Womanhood.

Like Plato's Forms, the observer is assumed to be male. Unlike Plato's forms, which were supposed to be eternal and exist outside time and space, the trans activist Form of Womanhood is very much tied to a time and a place. Very much so.

Over time, I have gradually inferred from context that their Form of Womanhood is shaped, nay inseparable, from current Western standards of beauty, i.e. white, young, without visible disabilities, slender but with large breasts, long hair, preferably blonde.

They are enraged that we don't see male transitioners as women, even if they have put themselves through cosmetic surgery in pursuit of the Form of Womanhood, and that we do see women who have never bothered with any of it as women.

Wish I was at this lunch
GrimDamnFanjo · 12/04/2022 04:32

@yourhairiswinterfire

.😍
This photo making the front page of the Times is huge.
Rainbowshit · 12/04/2022 04:50

Can't sleep so just scrolling through some of the reactions to these pictures. It's absolutely astonishing the rage over a picture of women enjoying each other's company.

Also the stark homophobia of calling lesbians not "performing femininity" men. The confusion that they don't identify as men.

How can people not see how regressive this movement is?

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 12/04/2022 05:57

@PanicPrevention

Anyone who wishes they were there, book tickets to Filia conference, it's in Swansea in September this year. I can guarantee you will be surrounded by brilliant women for a whole weekend, including women and girls only party on the Saturday night. I went last year and it was one of the best weekends if my life, even if it did make me feel a little inadequate compared to some of the absolutely amazing women who attended and spoke about the work they do. Even if you have nobody to go with, you will find women who will welcome you and look out for you. It really is the best place ever and I cant wait to get there again. Julie bindel sat down in the seat next to my best friend in the auditorium and I must admit I was pretty star struck. They sell sponsored tickets for women who can't afford the full price. Sorry I can't do a link, I'm dreaming jkr might be in Swansea x
It’s Cardiff 22-24 October (on for 3 days this time!) and yes, it’s BRILLIANT.

This is the link: www.filia.org.uk/

NitroNine · 12/04/2022 06:33

I know it’s most likely Willoughby is just parading their ignorance of the women’s suffrage movement in Britain & Ireland; but it is SUCH an announcement of privilege to align with the suffragettes. Then, of course, there’s arguably something very male about choosing violence in the casual way Willoughby has laid claim to it.

Presumably Willoughby thinks that they are positioning themselves as an heroic figure. Hence it appearing Willoughby’s level of knowledge & understanding is roughly around being able to sing along to [bits of] Sister Suffragette when watching “Mary Poppins”.

Some people might think that a move that could be read as a threat on the PM’s life is heroic, I suppose. Generally though, however much one might despise him, one would not wish him dead much less threaten to harm him. Just to stress again, I don’t think that’s Willoughby’s intent - it’s just crashing ignorance, arrogance & presumption on their part, without the slightest idea about the reading[s] of their claims to people who do know about the campaign for women’s suffrage.

This display - combined with the general responses to tweets by those who attended the lunch has reminded me there’s a quite literal embarrassment of TRAs with vastly over-inflated ideas of their intelligence. It’s most obvious with the “you just don’t understand the clown[fish] science of complicated skeletons reflecting how sex is a spectrum of a non-existent social construct” crowd (where requests for explanation are met with either “bigot! transphobe! TERF! BLOCKED AND REPORTED!!!”, or spamming with papers that prove nothing other than an urgent need for good quality research). The absolute state of people who try to argue that “gender” (in its modern sense) is not a modern word & posthumously trans all & sundry to prop up their claim there have always been trans people & it’s only recently people have questioned this.

Even this is an exhibition of privilege - & has been noted by Oxbridge academics to be an issue of male privilege so significant it impacts on exam results in non-STEM subjects. Male people - especially those who have been privately educated - will [attempt to] monopolise shared teaching time & will achieve higher marks in exams simply by being able to argue with pure arrogance. (It has, of course, yet to to occur to offer targeted support to the [comprehensive-educated] women whose careful, balanced, largely impersonal discussion so disadvantages them against men who simply mansplain with some degree of sophistication. But that’s about standard 🙄)

NecessaryScene · 12/04/2022 06:47

They are enraged that we don't see male transitioners as women, even if they have put themselves through cosmetic surgery in pursuit of the Form of Womanhood, and that we do see women who have never bothered with any of it as women.

If anyone like this sort of stuff Wink, you can get more from Jane Clare Jones who is not a Plato fan.

Three essays of hers touching on the subject of Platonism, in descending order of accessibility. (Top one has the Multicoloured Markers of Doom and cupcake drawings. Bottom one is a wall of text from her PhD, and hence has "a sad lack of jokes and swears").

On 'Transcendent Truths' and Oh-Such-Intellectual Sophistication
Identity, Sovereignty and Narcissism
Original Repetition: A Note

I would imagine all of these should be reprinted in "The Annals of the Terf Wars and Other Writing", available for pre-order now!

(Purgatory, feel free to plug your own book at any point Grin, seeing as I just brazenly took advantage of your excellent work).

we do see women who have never bothered with any of it as women.

Oh, and I've also just remembered, after thinking of the highbrow Plato stuff, the sublime Magdalen Berns, who also : "Do I look like I'm making any kind of conscious effort here?"

Theryn Meyer in that clip SO mad at Danielle Muscato for not making any effort, and the same rage is directed, possibly even harder, at women. Lots of transwomen like Theryn and India are in that camp - not really queer gender ideologues, they just think that "it's the conscious effort that counts", as Theryn says. They're better women, because they have to "work" at it.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 12/04/2022 07:13

@Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g

Here's Jess de Wahls' embroidery of it. I wonder who was lucky enough to buy that!
I should have said, here's Jess's artwork showing Liane. I don't actually know if it's embroidery, but Jess works in textiles, so it is presumably some form of textile art.
DomesticatedZombie · 12/04/2022 07:32

Fantastic, Purgatory, thank you!

Where we think of being female as a messy, biological reality, they have a Form of what women shouldlooklike.

Women are going to feel and experience being female. Males can only ever look on from the outside.

The thought makes me feel a bit sad and empty; it's such a basic truth that surface appearances aren't what matter and even 'happiness comes from within '. The whole gender issue is so much surface, mirrors, reflection, selfies, perception. All so damn shallow.

I think that's maybe to do with how we relate to the 'other' and the world, a failure to connect - so if someone can fill me in on the relevant philosophical reading that would be brilliant. Smile

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 12/04/2022 07:37

Thanks for the share token, @Igneococcus! Comments are overwhelmingly pro JKR et al, as usual.

Igneococcus · 12/04/2022 07:42

Yes, comment section is overwhelmingly supportive, it's nice to see.

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 12/04/2022 07:51

Some people might think that a move that could be read as a threat on the PM’s life is heroic, I suppose

Um… what????

BunnyBerries · 12/04/2022 08:09

The women at the lunch are all brilliant, this thread is brilliant. I'm glad such a happy news story is front pages and I'll be out getting them. The reactions to some women daring to have lunch together are extraordinary and yet thinking about it, completely expected.

We see a bunch of women, recognise them and accept them for their wonderful personalities and selves. Whereas others saw a bunch of woman and judged them for not performing femininity enough for them, not registering how truly unique human females are.

Of COURSE on the same day they would also try asking the Arts Council to drop funding for a project filming gay lives which would show more women and men just being themselves.

BraveBananaBadge · 12/04/2022 08:21

What a fantastic pictures. Brilliant to see such an amazing bunch of women together. Those women and this board have taught me so much and I'm so grateful. While I still know I'll lose friends if ever coming out in public support, I'm reading the books, donating to the fundraisers and sneaking the odd social media like. But I don't doubt anymore that when it comes down to it and I do have to have those conversations, I'm with the right tribe.

Datun · 12/04/2022 08:22

Yep, women not being the made up, approved, useful to men, male version, whilst simultaneously campaigning to retain their own legal and political definition? It doesn't get more fuck you, does it!

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 12/04/2022 08:24

@AngelinaFibres

I guess it must be very hard when you have dressed up and taken hormones and done some surgery stuff , that women ,who don't fit your idea of what it is to be feminine, are still the thing you desperately want to be. Those women are happy in their own skin. They can dress as they do because they are women. They don't have to perform 'being a woman' because it is what they are. Whether clothed or naked, fancied by straight men or not they are women. It must be stressful to see them having a ball because they don't give a damn whether they 'pass' as women. They are women and they don't need to give a moments thought to a man in a dress trying to be prettier than them.
Yes absolutely

I think this is where all of the viterol comes from

There may well be women out there you take a 2nd glance at but thats it, 2nd glance confirms they are female and in the vast majority of cases you can tell even with the jeans and jumper and short hair and height and no makeup that they are female

But for some people 2nd glance confirms without question that they are male

They aren’t jealous…they are envious ‘desire to have a quality, possession, or other desirable thing belonging to (someone else)’

RufustheFloralmissingreindeer · 12/04/2022 08:24

Transwomen…not ‘some people’

Doh!

Datun · 12/04/2022 08:27

They aren’t jealous…they are envious ‘desire to have a quality, possession, or other desirable thing belonging to (someone else)’

Yep. The only version of 'womanhood' they can attain is, by necessity, a one dimensional facsimile. And they're desperate for that to remain the blueprint. Women not adhering to it are spoiling the illusion.

DomesticatedZombie · 12/04/2022 08:31

Pure coincidence that the women provoking most ire are lesbians, I'm sure.

LittleWhingingWoman · 12/04/2022 08:33

@MaMaLa321

I loved the photos, but I wonder how those who were left out felt? Posie Parker has kept this going through sheer bloody-mindindness. But she seems to be the wrong sort of Feminist for some people. And Graham Lineham, who has sacrificed his career to the cause. Heather Brunskell Evans, who did a great talk at Bristol University.

It's great to see all those wonderful women, but there is also a trace of those horrible facebook posts of people having a great time when you weren't invited.

How do you know Posie wasn't invited? There are probably lots of women invited who couldn't attend.