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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Government ban on conversion therapy dropped

324 replies

DERFDogmaExlusionary · 31/03/2022 18:15

Breaking news

Leaked briefing "The PM has agreed we should not move forward with legislation to ban LGBT conversion therapy"

OP posts:
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7
tabbycatstripy · 05/04/2022 08:05

Indeed. This temper tantrum is just showing them up as never having been willing to discuss the complexity of the issues to begin with. A ban on actual forced ‘therapy’ or coercive forms of therapy is absolutely possible. It’s just not what they ever wanted. They wanted a legal ban on saying, ‘Actually, people can’t change sex’ to a child.

2Rebecca · 05/04/2022 08:10

I don't want my tax money going on a conference any way. It's the sort of conference the Tories would have criticised Ken Livingston's GLC for holding in the 80s. Spend the money on education and health. It will be all about the T (and the +s) the way the main LGBT organisations are at the moment. I've no desire to pay for or have media coverage of a large transactivist conference. Lesbians who know what women are will be excluded or harassed anyway

tabbycatstripy · 05/04/2022 08:27

Jolyon Maugham on Twitter: ‘What therapeutic purpose is served by allowing religious groups to conduct conversion 'therapy' on trans people? If it's about religious freedom, why are those groups going to be banned from 'converting' gay people?’

That needs unpacking a bit.

First, ‘praying someone straight/‘cis’ would not be regarded as a form of therapy by religious people. It’s only been proposed as a form of ‘therapy’ because the people who want the bill want to broaden the meaning from ‘therapy’ to ‘practices’, and have religious practices fall under that definition. So it isn’t trying to serve a therapeutic purpose, but a religious purpose.

Second, I would agree that forcing someone into any form of prayer for any reason is absolutely wrong. I would also agree that some of the extreme practices (physical acts, psychological bullying) that have been recorded in some instances of forced prayer for the purposes of making someone straight/‘cis’ are absolutely wrong.

But third, those aren’t the target of the proposed bill. What Maugham and others want to make illegal is ANY ‘practice’ that in any way denies the validity of ‘trans’ identities. And actually, a large part of that body of belief is directly contradicted by some people’s religious beliefs.

So, fourth, I don’t have any issue with people praying to be reconciled with their physical body, praying for an end to the suffering of dysphoria, praying for anything, in fact, that they want to ask of whoever or whatever they worship. I fundamentally don’t believe government has any business interfering in that. And I don’t believe government has any business telling faith leaders what they are ‘allowed’ to say to people who look to them for guidance.

So, if what Jolyon Maugham means is that he thinks there should be legislation criminalising ministers for saying, ‘You can’t change sex and yes, I will pray with you to help you accept this’ WITH the consent of the person who wants to pray, then I think we should resist this. I don’t think he is qualified to tell people this is ‘torture’ or ‘conversion therapy’, and I think he has shown enough of his own belief system for me to think there is deep fault line between his body of belief and any sense of religious freedom.

rogdmum · 05/04/2022 08:39

I know I’m preaching to the converted, but Nikki da Costa did an excellent Twitter thread this morning outlining the problems around blindly including gender ideology without understanding what we mean by talking therapies.

twitter.com/nmdacosta/status/1511211902843695106?s=21

ResisterRex · 05/04/2022 08:46

I'm not sure why she left but it seems the government badly needs Nikki da Costa back.

Lovelyricepudding · 05/04/2022 10:44

This, and the hate crime stuff, is basically Pakistan's blasphemy law and we know how well that works for human rights.

PrelateChuckles · 05/04/2022 11:02

That twitter thread and accompanying image:

Nikki da Costa
@nmdacosta

Why is society's inability to define 'woman' relevant to the furore on conversion therapy legislation? Because once again ordinary, everyday words - 'talking therapies' - are being given new definitions, throwing linguistic obstacles in the way of anyone that spots an issue 1/

LGBT groups appear to view anything which is not gender ‘affirmative’ care – that affirms the gender identity – as conversion therapy. They appear to want to ban legitimate therapy that seeks to help a child understand if anything may lie underneath their gender dysphoria 2/

EXAMPLE 1 : a female victim of sexual assault subsequently develops an intense discomfort with her female anatomy and expresses a desire to undergo medical intervention to change her body. A psychotherapist would look at how sexual assault may contribute to gender dysphoria 3/

EXAMPLE 2: A boy who has been relentlessly bullied for his gender non-conformity may conclude that if he were a girl then he would ‘fit in’ and the bullies would stop. This child may require psychotherapy rather than affirmation 4/

EXAMPLE 3: a same-sex attracted girl growing up in a deeply religious family, declares that they are a boy. Her struggle with same-sex attraction and/or internalised homophobia may be relevant. 5/

Gender identity ideology is at heart of the proposals - that gender identity, even in adolescence, even with all the turmoil of puberty, is innate and fixed. It permits no curiosity of whether U18s are being failed in other ways (sexualisation, objectification, homophobia) 6/

Nor does it permit concern that a child or teenager may undertake medical treatment with lifelong consequences, and "very limited research on the sexual, cognitive or broader developmental outcomes" [Cass]. Nor compassionate highlighting of detransitioners' as @jk_rowling
has 7/

MPs must decide. Do they wish to criminalise care usually seen as good practice? Allow accusations that only affirmative care is acceptable? Or do they wish to pass legislation without definitions as France and Canada did (two pages, two days debate per bill) 8/

The government is right to reflect. ‘Legislating’ – getting a bill to Royal Assent – isn't hard. Passing good legislation +avoiding unintended consequences is far harder. In a world where ordinary meaning of words is twisted, lawmakers must take responsibility. Definitions matter

In particular consider, what does it mean to move to assigning 'transgender status' to U18s, rather than recognising gender dysphoria, when it is impossible to distinguish a durable trans identity from a passing phase of an adolescent’s development.

Government ban on conversion therapy dropped
DomesticatedZombie · 05/04/2022 11:04

[quote rogdmum]I know I’m preaching to the converted, but Nikki da Costa did an excellent Twitter thread this morning outlining the problems around blindly including gender ideology without understanding what we mean by talking therapies.

twitter.com/nmdacosta/status/1511211902843695106?s=21[/quote]
That is excellent.

ResisterRex · 05/04/2022 12:47

Malcolm Clark thread on the conference, and money behind it:

twitter.com/TwisterFilm/status/1511049057153736716

And a one-off on the religious response to the LGB-only conversion therapy decision:

twitter.com/TwisterFilm/status/1511041977411846161

PrelateChuckles · 05/04/2022 14:03

Ah, I hadn't twigged that the 'sacred journey' quote was from Steve Chalke and signed by former Archbishop of Canterbury (sorry, My Lord).

The absolute gall of accusing GC feminists of aligning with Christians when this came from the Christian elite!

DomesticatedZombie · 05/04/2022 14:26

Well, well.

ResisterRex · 05/04/2022 15:46

Simon Edge on this story:

mobile.twitter.com/simonjedge/status/1511069406092214284

And the journalist who broke the story on a related resignation (of an advisor kind of post):

twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1511326575169527808

BootsAndRoots · 05/04/2022 16:29

I notice the current strategy is "all or nothing" approach, that it is LGBT, not LGB and T.

They're dodging the actual issue of what trans "conversion therapy" is. They quite happily go on about religious gay conversion therapy and make you assume it is the same for trans. Rather than doctors being punished for saying "there may be other factors at play in your desire to change sex".

MoonOnASpoon · 05/04/2022 16:50

But why do they want LGB with the T when they say themselves that they are different things, and they disapprove of exclusively same-sex attraction? Why do they want to represent a group they think is in the wrong - surely that group is better off having its own organisations.

Maybe they could have a group for trans and homogender/"queer" people, that would make more sense.

nauticant · 05/04/2022 17:14

They're dodging the actual issue of what trans "conversion therapy" is.

The answer seems to be "You know Conversion Therapy for gay people, right? Well, it's the same as that but for gender identity". That is, deliberately obscure.

The reports today about proceeding with Conversion Therapy for sexuality and then allowing activists to make a case for gender identity at a separate later stage does give me hope. We'd all love to see discussions on workable definitions and an evidence base.

Artichokeleaves · 05/04/2022 17:16

@MoonOnASpoon

But why do they want LGB with the T when they say themselves that they are different things, and they disapprove of exclusively same-sex attraction? Why do they want to represent a group they think is in the wrong - surely that group is better off having its own organisations.

Maybe they could have a group for trans and homogender/"queer" people, that would make more sense.

Because without the LGB there to lend credence and be the Trojan horse, it all becomes extremely questionable and dodgy.
nauticant · 05/04/2022 17:39

The PM programme is just now back to this subject. Let's see more of Evan Davis's applied journalistic skills and carefully maintained objectivity.

BootsAndRoots · 05/04/2022 17:46

@MoonOnASpoon

But why do they want LGB with the T when they say themselves that they are different things, and they disapprove of exclusively same-sex attraction? Why do they want to represent a group they think is in the wrong - surely that group is better off having its own organisations.

Maybe they could have a group for trans and homogender/"queer" people, that would make more sense.

It was only 15 years ago that T was added to LGB. It really came about as the T meant transsexual and they were mainly homosexual men and women who transitioned, they were pretty much part of the same community already.

Since T became transgender, and also the Q for queer (which a lot of heterosexual people use to describe themselves), it's become rather messy.

I still can't believe Stonewall called lesbians "sexual racists". The gay rights organisations are now homophobic, but as there is gay equality they need trans inequality to keep their funding models alive.

nauticant · 05/04/2022 17:47

Davis's definition of trans: someone who has a gender different to that assigned at birth.

After having Andrew Boff on the programme the other week, today they had an influential back bench Conservative MP, Damien Green. Well, it turned out it was a gender critical male MP who talked about care being needed with life-altering treatments, it being absurd that politicians can't answer "what is a woman?" when it's "adult female female", there being conflict with women's rights, and the need to acknowledge biology as real. Davis responded as though he was hearing the most outlandish statements.

MoonOnASpoon · 05/04/2022 17:57

Because without the LGB there to lend credence and be the Trojan horse, it all becomes extremely questionable and dodgy.

I can see that's definitely going on, but Stonewall etc presumably wouldn't admit to that. What is their purported reason for pretending they support gay people? If they're going to say same-sex attraction is wrong, then either they should not want same-sex-attracted people on board - or they want them to stop being same-sex attracted i.e. be converted to accept the opposite sex.

I want a journalist to ask NK this.

The other thing is, I know Stonewall achieved its aims regarding gay equality in the UK, but there is still plenty of need for gay rights to be fought for around the world. Why did they switch focus to trans instead of to non-UK causes? Also, there's still plenty of homophobia, even if not in law.

I mean NK is a lesbian herself, how can she not know that.

ResisterRex · 05/04/2022 18:06

When people say or type the words:

"Assigned female at birth"

Because they're saying it IS assigned...I really wonder if they ever say it slowly to themselves and think about it. It's such nonsense. And it is obviously nonsense if you stop and think about it.

Midwives aren't handing out sexes or inner genders to newborns but that's what this sentiment means if you follow it through. Imagine being the person who writes a policy on accessing a service and basing it on those words.

I can never get my head round how apparently bright people believe it.

Artichokeleaves · 05/04/2022 18:38

What is their purported reason for pretending they support gay people? If they're going to say same-sex attraction is wrong, then either they should not want same-sex-attracted people on board - or they want them to stop being same-sex attracted i.e. be converted to accept the opposite sex.

The evidence of this is all over threads right here.

LGB has been redefined, and LGBT+ now no longer means 'a group of diverse people sharing only one characteristic: that of homosexuality'.

It now means 'a group of people of any sexuality at all, straight included, united by a political position of gender identity'.

Those not politically compliant are excluded and no longer regarded as LGB. In the same way as female people who cannot be politically compliant with mixed sex spaces can be excluded from women's spaces and resources and de personed.

However Stonewall are relying heavily on this not being realised or pointed out, and trading still on the trust of representing and support all LGB people (including the homosexual ones.) While actually being very pro conversion therapy for lesbians.

Dinosauria · 05/04/2022 18:44

The greatest conversion therapy of all, Lesbians must accept dick.

I'm uncomfortable with putting laws on what can and can't be discussed in a counselling session, there is a difference between exploring ideas and conversion.

ResisterRex · 05/04/2022 20:01

In The Times:

Government set to ditch equality conference amid trans row

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/d6fba9a6-b502-11ec-8c29-375fe0cc1f19?shareToken=a1aa24106564524d09d7392b3ccc31b9

Artichokeleaves · 05/04/2022 20:24

It's really amazing that in all the reporting on this, no one , not government, not newspapers, is explaining to the general public why TQ+ 'conversion therapy' is a different thing, problematic and the reasons for separating LGB from T. Once you know the reasons it's bloody obvious this needs a lot of care, unpacking and caution.

But it's just being presented as some random unexplained bit of lunacy.

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