Government ban on conversion therapy dropped

[DERFDogmaExlusionary]

Breaking news

Leaked briefing "The PM has agreed we should not move forward with legislation to ban LGBT conversion therapy"

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

Calling someone a sexual racist for not fancying a transwoman who thinks they are a lesbian would fit into Stonewall's definition of conversion therapy. Do you think that should be banned?

Hell yes. It just makes it very clear stonewall are not fit for purpose If that purpose is to support LGB rights. Wonder if the next time NK says this after the bill is passed, some brave soul will report her for breaking the law, as surely telling a lesbian to accept males in their love life is conversion therapy, or it was regarded as such when right wing Christians did it,

@BeckyWokerson

Well, it appears that the Uk government likes their LGBT citizens to continue to be subject to Conversion therapy....

I'd try doing some reading through the resources suggested on this thread and others on this topic that you can find through a search on the board. You'd find it very helpful to realise the whole situation instead of a throwaway silly bit of propaganda someone's thrown you, and then you'd be able to make up your mind on it.

surely telling a lesbian to accept males in their love life is conversion therapy, or it was regarded as such when right wing Christians did it,

I am pretty definite that right wing Christians wouldn't be talking about accepting males (plural) into their love life. The right wing Christian view is that sex takes places only in marriage and that marriage is between a mana and a woman. So the proper behaviour for a lesbian would be celebacy.

I agree with this. And I think the term 'conversion therapy' itself is a real problem; it's highly sensationalist and emotive and sounds like Southern pastors 'driving out the devil'.

Is this any clearer with what they are proposing now?

Welcome to the world of upside down gobbledy gook.

The whole conversion bill gambit was based on thinking it was about the religious and medical torture well documented to force people to abandon what was perceived as sinful ways.

It's being pushed by those who tell homosexual women that they must 'overcome their genital bias' and 'learn to cope' with providing sex to male people in need without 'selfishly prioritising their orgasms' (the quotes are actual ones from TQ+ well known public faces. As a lesbian, they are emblazoned into my brain in the section marked fuck me, there are male people on the planet who actually loathe women this much.)

And this same lobby believes in shaming, shunning, name calling homosexual women to get them in line, and in the dark bits of Twitter there are those who like to talk about corrective rape and torture for the crime of saying no, even theoretically, to providing sexual service to a male person. A writer who did a lovely piece in one of the lesbian magazines about how to give pleasure to your male bodied partner with lesbian sex involving a penis (having first got over all that silly homosexuality prejudice) was at the same time posting openly on social media about a fantasy of women on some kind of roundabout, strapped down for rape and forced pregnancy (shall we guess which members of which sex would be doing this?) for their crime of saying no to sex with males.

I mean, as a lesbian, my response is I honestly don't care what names you want to call me, how pathologically fascinating the threats are that you make on social media about my refusing to obey you in saying the words you demand, and no, no matter what, I will not ever be having sex with a male bodied person because I am not a sex worker, and I will not ever be voluntarily having sex with someone I don't fancy, which excludes anyone born male . And anyone who needs to throw a fit about that really needs to look at why they have such big feelings about not being able to control me and my body in their mind.

But it makes an utter mess of trying to pretend that conversion therapy is a problem to this lobby. They're all for it, with no conscience about it whatsoever. Just on their terms, to their aims, to their agenda, and only protecting the chosen people.

Stonewall and a massive group of other organisations have pulled out of SafeToBeMe. They regret to say they will only be able to participate if the PM changes his mind (again) on the conversion therapy bill.

Now we’ll see if Johnson has any guns to stick to...

@MangyInseam

I agree with this. And I think the term 'conversion therapy' itself is a real problem; it's highly sensationalist and emotive and sounds like Southern pastors 'driving out the devil'.

Is this any clearer with what they are proposing now?

Sorry, don't know what you mean. What are they proposing now?

@Artichokeleaves

And while we're at it,

what exactly is transphobia and what constitutes it and what doesn't?

what exactly (this week) is 'homophobia' and 'misogyny'?

Transphobia - "having an opinion a TRA does not want you to have or asking for clarification of any definitions or questioning any misquoted 'facts' which support TRA arguments"

Homophobia - "treating a gay or bi-sexual person differently or badly on account of their sexual preference - unless this is done by a TRA"

Misogyny - "disadvantaging a transwoman in any way"

Amy I anywhere close?

@tabbycatstripy

Stonewall and a massive group of other organisations have pulled out of SafeToBeMe. They regret to say they will only be able to participate if the PM changes his mind (again) on the conversion therapy bill.

Now we’ll see if Johnson has any guns to stick to...

How does pulling out of your own conference work? Will anyone be bothered?

Looks like the whole conference will be scrapped according to the bbc. Apparently talks with LGBT groups failed to change the governments mind on the transgender aspect

I think the government will be happy with that outcome. Just say it’s “postponed until further notice” while they explore things further and kick it into the long grass

How does pulling out of your own conference work? Will anyone be bothered?

Question was I guess, how many balanced groups were going to be there? And by balanced, I mean any group that was seeking to find solutions and discussion and not the stonewall bully teams.

That last paragraph of Artichokes is spot on. Sadly.

@tabbycatstripy

Stonewall and a massive group of other organisations have pulled out of SafeToBeMe. They regret to say they will only be able to participate if the PM changes his mind (again) on the conversion therapy bill.

Now we’ll see if Johnson has any guns to stick to...

This is how they normally work - issue threats, bully, have a tantrum and then storm out in the unlikely event they don't get their own way.

It would appear that there's such a thing as self-cancelling apart from indicators on motor vehicles.

This is concerning. It would have been better for the ban on LGB conversion to go through under tories than not go through at all. It's the first thing Labour will do when they regain power now—with the T included.

@FireFlyBoogaloo

This is concerning. It would have been better for the ban on LGB conversion to go through under tories than not go through at all. It's the first thing Labour will do when they regain power now—with the T included.

Theres a whole list of TQ+ things Labour will do the second they regain power, to the detriment of women, children and homosexual people, disabled people....

Hence why women should not dare to allow Labour to be elected. Even if that means tactical voting to keep the really scary AF parties out.

We can’t make bad laws because another government would make worse ones. If Labour have lost the plot they deserve the wilderness, at least for the foreseeable future.

Perhaps the LGB Alliance could fill in the gaps at Boris's vanity project the conference and we could actually have an LGB space for LGB people? Just a mad thought..

I doubt there are enough other groups in this space that are level-headed and not fully Stonewalled to form a conference. The government should stand firm on their conversion therapy decision - even if LGB is basically already covered - and not allow themselves to be bullied about the T which is fraught with difficulties in terms of conversion therapy.

If the groups want to have a tantrum, let them. Had they thought instead of flown off the handle, they could have even used the conference to lay out why they think adding the T is important. They've now lost that chance.

The government now has between now and the election to deal with this. And they have got to listen to all angles, and they must stop pandering to those who want to blur the law. For example I saw some groups lamenting the lack of non-binary protection by not adding the T to conversion therapy (!). They just won't stop pushing and pushing, and trying to add new things in as though they're law - and on the very day when a significant part of the EQA was clarified.

Pulling out is a gift for the government. They should accept it with grace and thank their lucky stars it didn't go ahead, with the risk of some stunt being pulled.

@MargaritaPie

Sad that it looks like the UK will fall behind other countries in Europe in terms of LGBT-rights.

In what way? LGB rights are doing just fine and T rights are human rights and we all have those already.

@CompleteGinasaur

Perhaps the LGB Alliance could fill in the gaps at Boris's vanity project the conference and we could actually have an LGB space for LGB people? Just a mad thought..

Sounds sensible. Perhaps all the lesbians could attend. The proper ones that is - the ones who don’t think it’s bigotry to exclude dick from their dating pool.

And if the TRAs are so worried about Boris maybe they should step down and, for the greater good, suggest they compromise on their demands so that labour don’t remain unelectable. Currently the Tory government are sweeping up the LGB and the women. If you don’t like that happening, lobby hard for the TRAs to back off and stop making unreasonable demands.

Sorry, don't know what you mean. What are they proposing now?

I mean, even if they were to go ahead with a ban on conversion therapy for LGB people, it's still not well defined. Clearly they are not just talking about people having some sort of religious exorcism or whatever the popular idea is - they are talking about therapy being sought out by adults with people operating as professionals. So what exactly is it supposed to be precluding? And what isn't supposed to be included?

Government issued a statement saying it’s ‘disappointing’ that these organisations have pulled out of a conference focusing on global LGBT concerns and progress, that the PM is committed to the conversion therapy ban but that the trans conversion therapy ban specifically carried the risk of unintended consequences and they need time to explore those in separate work to consider transgender conversion therapy.

That's good tabby. We can't be in a position where the government gives into social media tantrums. There's been a consultation and there's a process. If the groups think they have the evidence to legally challenge the government's decision on T and conversion therapy then that's what they should do.