Page 10 | Government ban on conversion therapy dropped

DERFDogmaExlusionary · 2022-03-31T17:15:17+00:00

Breaking news Leaked briefing "The PM has agreed we should not move forward with legislation to ban LGBT conversion therapy"

Datun · 03/04/2022 11:19

Unfortunately, despite the Government’s decision to work on these elements further, any bill banning conversion therapy for sexual orientation is bound to see poorly drafted amendments to insert gender identity tabled within weeks of introduction.

A written description of 'gender identity' from stonewall would be a start.

They send it. The government send it back with questions.

We know, full well, that's where it all starts to unravel. The inconsistency, the lack of logic, the overwhelming subjectivity, etc.

Get it all out there. If this is being decided on social media, give all the people all the info.

We know they cant. So make them.

Original poster

DERFDogmaExlusionary · 03/04/2022 12:04

amendments to insert gender identity

aren't there enough MP's and Lords to push back on this in the same way they did with 'Mother' and the maternity bill?

OP posts:

OvaHere · 03/04/2022 12:34

A written description of 'gender identity' from stonewall would be a start.

I agree. The government need to get Stonewall and every other trans org round a table and get them to agree on one definition of what it means and what transgender means.

Luckily the Tories have a great example as a starting point for discussion.

Jamie Wallis MP came out as trans this week. He won't be seeking to embark on medical treatment, change his presentation, his name or his pronouns at this point.

Questions I would ask

is Wallis transgender by definition and if so what definition?

-If no then at what point on his 'journey' will be become transgender? -If he chooses to never embark on a transition 'journey' for the remainder of his life should he be treated in life and law as trans or as a man?

There's loads more that could be asked too.

Before anything goes into legislation all these definitions need to be hammered out and agreed upon so everyone knows exactly what is being talked about.

I suspect they won't be able to do it beyond "if someone says they are trans then they are".

Datun · 03/04/2022 12:40

@OvaHere

A written description of 'gender identity' from stonewall would be a start.

I agree. The government need to get Stonewall and every other trans org round a table and get them to agree on one definition of what it means and what transgender means.

Luckily the Tories have a great example as a starting point for discussion.

Jamie Wallis MP came out as trans this week. He won't be seeking to embark on medical treatment, change his presentation, his name or his pronouns at this point.

Questions I would ask

is Wallis transgender by definition and if so what definition?

-If no then at what point on his 'journey' will be become transgender? -If he chooses to never embark on a transition 'journey' for the remainder of his life should he be treated in life and law as trans or as a man?

There's loads more that could be asked too.

Before anything goes into legislation all these definitions need to be hammered out and agreed upon so everyone knows exactly what is being talked about.

I suspect they won't be able to do it beyond "if someone says they are trans then they are".

You'd think, wouldn't you, that a politician could easily explain this as being incredibly helpful for everybody concerned, including the trans lobby.

Let's see what it is you're talking about, exactly, and how we can all discuss it.

We want to help, we want to help everyone, so let's really sit down, pencil and paper and hand, and hammer it out.

It's my personal opinion that the motivation of the trans lobby has got nothing to do with what they say it has.

And therefore, any hammering out of anything will be anathema.

All you've got to do is ask them.

Artichokeleaves · 03/04/2022 12:41

And while we're at it,

what exactly is transphobia and what constitutes it and what doesn't?

what exactly (this week) is 'homophobia' and 'misogyny'?

ChristinaXYZ · 03/04/2022 12:41

Sorry if this has been posted already but dashing and this is a longish thread.

Excellent piece on twitter by Malcolm Clark (LGBA) on the holes in the arguments on conversion therapy and how the T's (or the 'allies') don't think it through or read their own evidence properly.

Thread here twitter.com/TwisterFilm/status/1510303691202564103 but the corking bits (no.s 5 and 6 in thread) are:

"In Peredes' own account of the brutal conversion therapy of lesbians in Ecuador ...based, she says on real accounts, young lesbians are forced to embrace gender stereotypes by being taught make up and hair styling by ...err...transvestites and drag queens. ...

"We who are 'gender critical' know the problem with the gender identity mob is they claim to be against gender stereotypes but spend their time reinforcing them. It's refreshing to have confirmation of this from the most sacred text of the Conversion Therapy Ban campaign."

nauticant · 03/04/2022 12:41

aren't there enough MP's and Lords to push back on this in the same way they did with 'Mother' and the maternity bill?

You need two things to be in place. For the MPs to understand the subtlety here. For you and me, it's as subtle as a sledgehammer but looking across the media landscape, not many people outside of the gender critical world seem to be able to grasp the very simple issue here. For the MPs to be convinced enough and resolute enough to be willing to stand up for sexuality and gender identity to be decoupled when it comes to banning Conversion Therapy. How many will see this as offering poor risk/reward to them personally?

Original poster

DERFDogmaExlusionary · 03/04/2022 12:45

Thanks Nauticant. I can see more campaigns from women's groups will be needed to help them see the sledgehammer

OP posts:

nauticant · 03/04/2022 12:51

That will be needed. Remember there are going to be a lot of MPs, from Labour, Lib Dems, SNP, and some Conservatives, who are going to be absolutey committed to getting "gender identity" back in the Bill. How will that compare with the number of committed GC MPs?

I really see this is being in the balance without MPs in general becoming much more informed about how Conversion Therapy is a very different thing when viewed through the lens of sexuality compared to gender identity.

Datun · 03/04/2022 12:56

In which case, people like Julia Hartley Brewer, and other broadcasters, need to be asking what is gender identity?

'Oh it's when your sense of who you are doesn't match your sex.'

Okay, describe that, please.

Because in seven years, I've never seen anyone manage it.

MoonOnASpoon · 03/04/2022 12:57

Yes, what we need is debate and explanations, and then more and more people, including politicians, will start to see what's been going on.

This isn't just the harebrained take of a few bonkers "transphobic" feminists based on hatred of trans people, as represented by stonewall and mermaids etc, who are the sources politicians and institutions have been listening to, despite their lack of evidence. It's serious findings and science from experts, national governments, medical evidence etc as well as clear evidence from detransitioners, with cases already going through the courts that are making clear that the affirmation approach is a disaster and a health scandal.

When they have to actually look at the evidence and pay attention, instead of kneejerk defaulting to "ignore the transphobes", it will finally sink in.

Datun · 03/04/2022 12:59

Julia should just ask a trans person. And don't accept Freaky Friday lookalikee scenarios.

Ask an actual trans person to describe, with every single word in the English language at their disposal, what their inner monologue says when they hear they're not the sex they are.

Let's get it written down. If you're going to make a law about it, let's write it on a piece of paper first.

GenderCynical · 03/04/2022 20:55

This reply has been deleted

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Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 03/04/2022 21:11

If they did ban it and followed it properly and in an unbiased way, gender ideology would crumble.

Thelnebriati · 03/04/2022 21:24

@GenderCynical did you read the thread by Malcolm Clark?
threadreaderapp.com/thread/1510303691202564103.html

nauticant · 03/04/2022 22:09

Everything GenderCynical touches turns into deleted.

BeckyWokerson · 03/04/2022 22:38

Well, it appears that the Uk government likes their LGBT citizens to continue to be subject to Conversion therapy....

nauticant · 03/04/2022 22:43

Hello new poster. Let me introduce you to new poster GenderCynical. Something tells me you'll get on with each other.

Thelnebriati · 03/04/2022 22:46

@BeckyWokerson

Well, it appears that the Uk government likes their LGBT citizens to continue to be subject to Conversion therapy....

No, the govt is going to ban conversion therapy, including sending people abroad. www.gov.uk/government/consultations/banning-conversion-therapy

Datun · 03/04/2022 23:11

@BeckyWokerson

Well, it appears that the Uk government likes their LGBT citizens to continue to be subject to Conversion therapy....

Its like Opposite Land.

Helleofabore · 03/04/2022 23:12

@BeckyWokerson

Well, it appears that the Uk government likes their LGBT citizens to continue to be subject to Conversion therapy....

Maybe you should do some reading of the impact and misuse this kind of legislation has had on clinicians in other countries where it has been introduced, and ultimately the resultant drop in quality of care for trans people.

Until it is explicit enough to protect appropriate explorative therapy, this bill is not fit for purpose for our young people.

And by young people, I mean the daughters and sons of a growing number of mumsnetters who actually keep up to date with what is happening treatmentwise in the Uk and around the world.

But crack on with the emotive misrepresentation.

ScrollingLeaves · 04/04/2022 00:21

@BeckyWokerson

Well, it appears that the Uk government likes their LGBT citizens to continue to be subject to Conversion therapy

Did you hear, the U.K. government will go ahead with the ban on conversion therapy for lesbian, gay and and bi-sexual people?

Do you understand that currently, there are very real concerns that ‘conversion therapy’ where potentially trans gender children are concerned, could be conflated with psychological, exploratory therapies, for body dysphoric children, or children who feel they do not. conform to the social stereotypes of their sex? The concern is that in these cases instantly ‘affirming’ them as being trans gender could mask the many other reasons for their distress other than that they are trans. For example, autism, trauma, past sexual abuse, peer pressure, internalised homophobia when they may be gay. And that such affirmation at the expense of exploratory therapy may lead to a pathway of hormones and possible surgery for young people, who would otherwise have gone on to lead normal lives without any transition.

Have you read the interim Cass report? Have you read of what happened to Keira Bell?

Crcohetmonster · 04/04/2022 05:37

@BeckyWokerson

Well, it appears that the Uk government likes their LGBT citizens to continue to be subject to Conversion therapy....

Um how so? Have they not just announced a ban on conversion therapy for homosexual and bisexual people? How us that then allowing conversion therapy to happen. Unless of course you’re not concerned with the LGB.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 04/04/2022 08:33

Calling someone a sexual racist for not fancying a transwoman who thinks they are a lesbian would fit into Stonewall's definition of conversion therapy. Do you think that should be banned?

DameHelena · 04/04/2022 08:40

@Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky

Perhaps those in power might start to see how important it is not to bracket T with LGB but see them as different groups that have issues that sometimes overlap and sometimes do not. A law that was going to ban therapists from exploring issues around gender identity was a poorly worded law

I agree with this. And I think the term 'conversion therapy' itself is a real problem; it's highly sensationalist and emotive and sounds like Southern pastors 'driving out the devil'. What they mean, surely, is supporting and listening to, but not automatically and unquestioningly affirming, someone who says they are trans/non-binary. Which can't be a bad thing considering all the associated issues.