Gender argument - caught in the middle

[Baggingarea]

I feel totally caught in the middle in this brave new world of gender ID and I guess I’m just looking for somewhere to vent without getting piled on.

I just think the argument has become so unbelievably divided that there’s no room for mediation any more.

On the one hand I see a mean girls club basically bullying trans women online and selectively finding examples of criminals etc to prove a point.

On the other I think the sports industry / politicians are so scared to put a foot wrong they are throwing trans women to the wolves. Like surely there should be some debate and policy making going on. You can’t have trans women dominating womens sports as they have an unfair advantage. Professional bodies should be having serious conversations about this.

In terms of changing rooms etc we need to make sure everyone is happy and feels comfortable. Personally I hate changing in front of others regardless of their gender at birth - why can’t we more provision for individual changing rooms for both men and women?

Like I get how women are so protective of their rights but it’s not like trans people haven’t faced discrimination and prejudice too.

I just hate how I can’t feel like I can’t say these things publicly without being branded a terf or a gender traitor. Stifling debate like this is not healthy!

[quote Cayeli]@LittleWhingingWoman Tell me, why are Lia Thomas' pictures being posted as part of these arguments, if not to enforce certain standards of femininity?[/quote]
Standards of femininity?
Thomas is a biological male with long hair. Why restrict the standards of masculinity so that a male who wishes to dress in a stereotypical feminine way is suddenly not a male anymore?

[quote Cayeli]@LittleWhingingWoman Tell me, why are Lia Thomas' pictures being posted as part of these arguments, if not to enforce certain standards of femininity?[/quote]
Tell me, do you think that Thomas should be allowed to dress and be naked in an open changing room with my 14 year old daughter?

www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/exclusive-upenn-philly-da-ignore-complaints-about-lia-thomass-male-nudity-in-the-womens-locker-room?_amp=true

Do you think it's ok for Thomas to walk around with their cock out in an open changing room?
Because I'm not interested in wether Thomas wants to wear a dress.
I'm interested in whether Thomas has an unfair physical advantage over the women they are competing against and whether or not these women are distressed by seeing male genitalia in their changing room. Thomas is attracted to women by the way. So for all intents and purposes, a straight man has transitioned and is now identifying as a transwoman and has access to a changing room where young women are getting changed.

No ones trying to impose standards of femininity. We’re trying to impose the objective reality of sex.

‘Tell me, why are Lia Thomas' pictures being posted as part of these arguments, if not to enforce certain standards of femininity?’

It’s not about femininity. The images just show that Thomas is male, and that’s the whole debate done.

@Baggingarea

Sorry I meant somebody born male. I just don’t get why saying let’s not be horrendous to an individual is oppressing womens legal rights? There should be a middle ground where everyone (or at least most of us) are happy. Sorry if I’m naive.

Dont worry, you definitely don’t sound naive.

if not to enforce certain standards of femininity?

Thomas is a male person. Standards of femininity don't apply.

if not to enforce certain standards of femininity?

oh don't be silly.

It is not the changing room for people of either sex who are performing femininity to a set degree, it's the changing room for people of the female sex.

Female people are entitled to spaces away from male people for their own needs and comfort. Their right to do so should not be predicated on whether or not male people agree. Male people feeling entitled to make the call on this and permit it only if it doesn't prevent male people having everything they want first are demonstrating exactly why in 2022 it is more important than ever that females have gatekept spaces in law. Males are not going to #bekind voluntarily.

‘Tell me, why are Lia Thomas' pictures being posted as part of these arguments, if not to enforce certain standards of femininity?’

Sometimes a picture says things better than a thousand words.

Lia is not a woman and shouldn't be competing against women.

Thomas' photo is being posted to demonstrate the characteristics of a male body.

Whether you think Thomas is being shown as masculine because of body type or feminine because of confirming to feminine presentation stereotypes (long hair, costume) is down to you.
Like nearly everyone on the planet , an argument could be made for them being a mixture of both masculine and feminine aspects, depending on how you
choose to define them.

What sex you are has nothing to do with cultural interpretations of what is masculine or feminine. Unless you are using "feminine" in a medical sense, when it more often refers to body type?

I will probably get this post deleted for expressing an opinion.

If any man wants to become female, fine, but he should also get his bits removed and become a eunuch, then I would have no objection at all to changing in the same space.

Emasculation I’m sure would reduce the number wanting to become trans dramatically.

Cayeli

Tell me, why are Lia Thomas' pictures being posted as part of these arguments, if not to enforce certain standards of femininity?

You are rather mistaken but I suspect you understand that. You have your own agenda to push here.

No. Pictures of Lia Thomas are being presented as clear evidence of the visible advantages that Thomas has due to their male puberty. Height, shoulder span, hip configuration, hand and feet size are all there. Visible indicators as to just a very few of the physical advantages Thomas has had.

This is a similar tactic that OP is trying to use. The old, you are allowed to disagree but you can never use specific examples to highlight or clarify your case tactic.

We have seen this evidenced over and over.

Extreme trans activist: that is not true!

Feminist: here is a clear indisputable example.

Activist: how mean/phobic/[insert silencing label here]

That was why watching Maya Forstater’s tribunal was really very enlightening. Because each of those witnesses believed there was absolutely no way that Maya, or any feminist, could have a conversation or make a statement that was not deemed offensive. And that the offense of those people who found Maya’s statements offensive were always prioritised above Maya’s perceived offense. Yet, most of those witnesses also stated that Maya also had a point. And the rights for females should be allowed to be discussed. … just as they then stated there was no language that could be used to discuss them without causing offense.

And the circle went around and around.

So. No. I don’t give a flying fuck about judging Thomas’ ‘femininity’. Photos are used as evidence of male pubertal advantages. You are simply attempting to silence discussion to suit your own political agenda.

I would have no objection at all to changing in the same space.

Not a solution I am afraid. They would retain their male strength and physique. Traumatising for victims of men's violence and still pose a physical risk to women.

It's also a dodgy moral area to demand people have extreme surgery for entry into female spaces.

It's very simple.
No men in female spaces. Ever.
No caveats.
No exceptions.
No hypothetical.

Any 'rules' you make can be exploited.

For years No Debate was the policy of gender extremists who had taken over taxpayer funded organisations like Stonewall. This suited them at first because their arguments do not stand up to scrutiny. Neither are they very skilled at debate since for years they've got away with simply making assertions to which people cannot respond without threats and accusations of bigotry. More recently TRAs have seemed to soften their approach and there is more talk about discussions and middle ground. I hope you'll forgive me for thinking this is because they can see they are losing the general public - and not some new found love of free speech.

I will probably get this post deleted for expressing an opinion.

This is a forum for opinions! Express as many as you want! It is good for the soul to be heard.

If any man wants to become female, fine, but he should also get his bits removed and become a eunuch, then I would have no objection at all to changing in the same space.

I am glad that you feel that you have no issues about sharing. That still leaves the issue that women shouldn’t be giving away others protections. But I am sure you realise that.

Emasculation I’m sure would reduce the number wanting to become trans dramatically.

You could be right on the number. But as Eresh says it is rather cruel to insist that a person goes through such extreme surgery and it doesn’t actually provide a solution. A male having such surgery still retains all the strength and other physical advantages. They also can usually reliably be perceived as male, so still cause significant distress to some women and children.

[quote Cayeli]@LittleWhingingWoman Tell me, why are Lia Thomas' pictures being posted as part of these arguments, if not to enforce certain standards of femininity?[/quote]
But he has long hair and is in a womans' swimsuit?

What other 'standards of femininity' could be being shown in the photographs?

Maybe Thomas was wearing mascara??

@Baggingarea

No I mean trans women are. Yes it’s unfair on biological women but at the end of the day who is letting them compete? They shouldn’t be the subject of all this hats because sports officials have buried their heads in the sand.

Nobody is stopping trans women from competing. Nobody wants to stop them competing. We just want them to compete fairly and stick to their sex category.

If a picture of a woman who was tall/muscular/ had short hair etc was posted with the question how if this a woman? It would be enforcing standards of feminity by saying any woman who falls outside of the stereo type of women isn't one but by questioning how a man can be a woman the only standard of feminity being up held is that females need to be erm female. It's not demanding pretty hair or nice nails or pink frilly dresses to be considered female just that to be regarded as a woman you need to be an adult female human.

Oh and just to add in sports the power certainly doesn't come from the penis.

Mind jumps to consider potential added powerboost from penis-helicoptering underwater versus extra drag factor.

@DomesticatedZombie

Oh and just to add in sports the power certainly doesn't come from the penis.

Mind jumps to consider potential added powerboost from penis-helicoptering underwater versus extra drag factor.

Unfortunately brings back images of my first unsolicited porn gif from a boy...

Oh and just to add in sports the power certainly doesn't come from the penis.

It comes from a body that has been through male puberty, heart size, not being hampered by menstruation and hormone fluctuations etc.

Yes.

It comes from a body like Lia's. Biology is not bigotry.

In terms of changing rooms etc we need to make sure everyone is happy and feels comfortable

I think you need to understand that this is not possible. Male supremacists/ TRA want men to have unfettered access to women's spaces as a result of their identity. Women don't think there is ever a reason why men should be in women's spaces. There is no middle ground here. Either we have women's spaces or we have mixed spaces.

Accepting that women are not being 'mean' for saying that 'we want to keep female spaces' may also be helpful. Accepting that saying this more assertively after you've been shouted at, demeaned and threatened does not make you a 'mean girl' is probably also helpful.

This is a zero sum game I'm afraid just as many issues of trying to tackle entrenched privilege are.