Hypothetical perfect sex change

[pop91]

Hypothetical:

Say there was a perfect sex change in the future where every single cell could be recoded as male for a trans man, would you then accept transmen as men? or would they need to be born male even if their entire physicality and biology were changed?

(To be clear this sex change would hypothetically naturally dissolve breasts and naturally create a penis as well as ALL other physical changes)

Yawn. What a load of silly nonsense OP. No, it will never be possible, and yes, that is relevant to your thought experiment.

It’s scientifically possible now for a white person to be made to look like a black person. Does that mean that black people should have to accept such a white person as being just like them? Or would they perhaps be right to say (a) that’s blackface (b) it’s offensive and appropriating and (c) what sort of psychological mess are you to want to do that.

Depends on the age. At say 12 months old then I think it would be impossible to know the baby had undergone such a procedure. The parents should of course then go to prison for subjecting their child to the procedure.

Adults of course the procedure would simply be impossible, men and women simply don't think the same way due to biological needs, environment and cultural identity. If the persons brain were changed so that they think the way the opposite sex does... then the original person has been destroyed and remade into someone else.

Biological dimorphism doesn't stop with the genitals.

@Mysterioso

What if the sun one day actually transformed into the wheel of a chariot? Energy and mass all compensated for. The transformation would generate the chariot and any other necessary parts. Chariots and suns are real and related as they share shape.

Seeing as you take yourself too seriously, I'll help: I really don't care what the sun decides to morph into in my imagination or in the future. Right now it's a sun and I'm not going to deny that reality just because it may one day, which may never come, become a wheel.

This cheered me right up, thank you!

[quote WouldBeGood]@Kanaloa petite, but big gun? 🤣

Told ds about this film and he’s told me about one called Velocipastor - on the list[/quote]
Who knows 😂 sounds ridiculous though. I like the sound of Velocipastor - I’m a big fan of sharknado and the likes!

@tabbycatstripy

It begs the question. Of course, if you could perform a perfect sex change, the person's sex would have changed.

Thank you so much for using "begs the question" in (what I believe to be) the correct way! It's so rare these days, makes me nostalgic for A level maths and my teacher shouting "don't beg the question!" when we were doing proofs. :)

[quote HalfShrunkMoreToGo]@pop91 this sentence from you fascinates me

"nope, I meant for trans people but interesting to hear people say most women would become men just for the benefits."

JUST for the benefits

Women are still do not have equity with men even in the UK which is supposed to be a modern and progressive society.

Pay disparity and low representation in senior roles
Increased poverty
74% of women in prison in the last stats issued in 2019 were there for failure to pay TV license.
Men can have children and it's fine to never pay or care for them leaving women in poverty

Look more globally and you have infant girls having their genitalia removed or sewn shut
Foetuses being aborted because a scan shows they don't have a penis
Newborns being left to die, actively murdered or abandoned because they were born with a vulva and vagina
Girls being trafficked and sold for sex or slavery

There is no JUST about the benefits of being male.
[/quote]
I've suddenly felt angry at trans men - I don't usually. But just thinking that they're opting out of all that women have to deal with, and leaving the rest of us to deal with it.

Like the case of a female employee who declared herself non-binary, and so fought for special permission for herself to wear a male uniform, rather than fighting for all the employees to be able to wear either the "male" or "female" uniform.

It just seems to be a "fuck everyone else" attitude.

You know. I am getting pretty tired of this ‘gender criticals’ shit. Do you see any regular poster on this board calling people ‘the transes’.

It is a very strange dehumanising way to refer to people who disagree with you, OP. Have you ever wondered about your own prejudices? Because on your two threads you really seem to be heavily invested in dehumanising people who disagree and you even seem to have rather dramatically misrepresented what ‘the gender criticals’ think.

Ever give you pause?

@Absurdle

Really want to know how these people think their consciousness will continue to exist in a completely different brain and body.

How do you not realise within five seconds of thinking about this question that the underlying assumptions are religious?

Indeed, yes.

-- Although many soi-disant atheists have also bought the Cartesian myth lock-stock-and-barrel.

And some religious do not buy it: this is what 'Resurrection of the body' is all about in the Christian Creed; you cannot be you without your body. (Here is a way Aquinas survived Descartes, if you like.)

Interesting that a Thomist-style Christian will not consistently be able to buy into trans 'gender identity'. But, well, who cares? (No-one, probably.)

'Thank you so much for using "begs the question" in (what I believe to be) the correct way! It's so rare these days, makes me nostalgic for A level maths and my teacher shouting "don't beg the question!" when we were doing proofs.'

Had to! It's such a very good example.

@wasibat - yes indeed; and without that Thomist strain it’s particularly notable that the C of E seems to have fully embraced gender ideology — yet remains wary of homosexuality, and still uncomfortable with women despite its apparent acceptance.

My answer is no because we consider girls and women with CAIS to be girls and women because of their socialisation as girls and women, rather than their underlying genotype.

In the equally unlikely event that a boy was both brought up as a girl from the point his parents decided liking glitter made him a girl AND they destroyed his fertility but magically gave him female gametes I'd still say no because he was known to be a boy and, like JJ, I bet his place in the family and the way his family persuade school etc to treat him is also like a son.

This is also like girls with CAIS who are known to have XY in some cases from quite early but still socialised like girls/school will treat them like girls.

I’ve thought before that this is an interesting philosophical question. It’s not entirely beyond the realms of possibility that one day, genetic manipulation might be able to turn testicular tissue into ovarian tissue, though it looks a very long way off that anything regarding larger scale physical changes might be achieved.

What I would say is that even if your sex changed completely, you could never undo all your socialisation. I also suspect that if technology had moved that far, there’s a good chance other technology might have advanced too, so that the obvious societal problems and inequalities that make separate women’s rights and women’s spaces necessary, will perhaps have disappeared. If you can turn a male body into a female one, presumably all kinds of other manipulations would also be possible. Why would we bother with sexed bodies anyway?

Realistically, most men who fantasize about being women don’t actually want to be women anyway. They want to experience “gender euphoria” and we all know what that requires!

🍖🥦🥬

So in the end, it’s a pointless question, as others have observed. Perhaps doctors will, in time, learn the more important art of mending the brain, so that people with actual sex confusion and distress will learn to accept their sexed bodies, and can have the damage that caused them to misconstrue their sex undone. And those whose sexual tendencies have formed into abnormal and harmful patterns might be fixed too. I live in hope.

If my breasts, uterus, ovaries, vagina and clitoris were absorbed into my body; if I grew a penis and testicles; if I grew 4 inches in height and all my body fat was redistributed and my muscles all changed; if I grew more hair on many parts of my body and lost hair on another parts; if the proportions of my face all changed; if my brain was remodeled as though it had developed in response to male hormone levels from birth instead of female; if my internal organs all changed and my lungs had a greater volume and I had more blood pumping around my body...

Perhaps I would be some kind of man but would I still be me?

In the hypothetical world where this is possible, we’d have cured all disease and indeed mortality, and we’d have figured out how to make human beings massively smarter than we currently are. I hope we’d all be enjoying ourselves too much and have too many interesting things to think about to give this question any attention.

If someone is suffering distress at the sex they were born, wouldn’t it be better that scientists work on how to successfully deal with that distress so the person is happy with their material reality.

Rather than performing what amounts to the Star Trek transporter beam technology version of individualisation.

If any person has had any perception of themselves as a person, then miraculously changing sex is not going to work. Because it was based on someone’s perception of what the other sex is. Not on the material reality of what that sex is.

And if someone does it to a child, it would be abusive and not based on the child’s needs.

And that leaves an adult… and well, we have seen just how males who transition cannot seem to get rid of the sometimes extreme misogyny they display.

Or are we going to be told it doesn’t happen, that pp’s have not witnessed it so we are making it up, and so on. Because, we have had an instance like that this week already on a thread. And the poster still told us we were hateful and no male ever fetishises pregnancy and even abortion.

FOR WHOEVER HAS READ THIS FAR

Last Night I decided to post my experience with my self-proclaimed Gender Critical Parents. I was inspired by my Mothers online posts relating to myself and my family to post here hoping to discuss parenting for trans or gender dysphoric children with people who disagree on the notions of 'transness.'

Although the responses started out positive and reasonable, specifically the GC mother explaining her understanding of her daughter's + friend groups gender dysphoria (which I would have loved to hear more about).

The replies quickly turned to questions and statements that I simply either cannot answer (not being an expert) or for my peace of mind have chosen not to.

I avoided gendered language in my post as to not be subject to the 'truth telling' as I honestly don't require it, but for some reason, it felt important for people to work out that I am a trans man?

Questions of why I was up late on Mother's Day as if it wasn't evident I was thinking of my own Mother and reacting as such sad

I'm sorry but I can't define a woman or man beyond the definitions I've thus far provided, maybe someone from the trans or grammatical community who's far smarter than me will be able to provide the definitions in the required parameters.

I cannot explain Gender Dysphoria beyond the emotional and rudimentary personal understanding I have. I'm sure experts could explain it in a way that would feel more satisfactory but I admit I cannot.

And so on...with such questions and statements, I was pulled into trying to explain last night when the responses went off-topic (parenting and parental relationships).

I particularly cannot understand the Racial context that came into play, especially with assertions about my Mixed ethnicity or of my father's religion and ethnicity that I found deeply offensive.

I admit in my Late Night haze I posted this more theological hypothetical which in hindsight was posted in the wrong space. And I reacted out of emotion in some reply's as things got heated which I regret.

But as a summarization of what I learned from this thought experiment:

1. There's a belief that this hypothetical person would have changed sex but not the gendered socialisation they grew up with. I might posit then should ALL children not be raised 'non-binary' where gendered socialisation itself is entirely removed?

1. That such a person even having changed sex completely would then still be subject to caveats due to the gendered socialisation so therefore there is not a perfect transition. No 'amount of transition' will remove these caveats for GCs.

1. That such a procedure would result in inequality due to females choosing to become male regardless of what gender dysphoria that might develop as the benefits of being male outweigh feelings of Gender Dysphoria?

1. That such a procedure isn't then required as it won't change the fundamental request of Trans People to be treated fully as the Gender they 'transition' to.

1. That there is not an understanding in GC beliefs that a reason beyond social is possible for the existence of trans people and there is no biological reason Trans people exist, for example, hormone anomalies in the womb?

Thank You for replying even if some posts weren't as sincere as others. Good Luck to you all :)

END

I might posit then should ALL children not be raised 'non-binary' where gendered socialisation itself is entirely removed?

Sure. Tried that to a certain extent, they pick it up from their peers and from what they watch. But then, try to control the entirely age appropriate shows they watch, and you then end up with a child that starts feeling ostracised.

But to what degree? If you want to home school your child and declare them genderless, go ahead. But tell us, how confusing is it for a child to also be brought up as 'genderless'.

How about all children be brought up to accept their sexed bodies, to feel that their sexed bodies are right for them and beautiful just the way they are, and fuck off with any of this 'gendered' crap at all. Stereotypes, wrong body everything.

And for 'genderless', I refer to being able to one day being able to 'choose their gender' rather than accepting their sexed bodies and having a personality that means they can do whatever they want, be who they want to be but accept that they are human and cannot change sex and that their sex should not mean they should act a certain way, or choose certain roles.

Mansplains my position and still gets it wrong.

Do they teach that kind of arrogance at reorientation then?

There's a belief that this hypothetical person would have changed sex but not the gendered socialisation they grew up with. I might posit then should ALL children not be raised 'non-binary' where gendered socialisation itself is entirely removed?

If by 'raised non-binary' you mean raised without the expectation that girls will like pink and dolls, will enjoy quiet and calm activities, will be kind and reticent and will aspire to jobs traditionally done by women, and without the expectation that boys will be boisterous and forthright, will like construction toys and cars and will aspire to do 'manly' jobs, then yes absolutely!

But in my experience, what non-binary seems to mean for lots of people is not 'I am e.g. female but I don't subscribe to all the stereotypes associated with femaleness' (if that were the definition, most women would be classed as non-binary). It seems to mean 'I don't wholly subscribe to the stereotypes associated with either sex, therefore I am neither a man nor a woman'.

END OF.

@MyLittlePhonyPony

Mansplains my position and still gets it wrong.

Do they teach that kind of arrogance at reorientation then?

yh it comes free with the 10 inch mechanical dick

@Helleofabore

I might posit then should ALL children not be raised 'non-binary' where gendered socialisation itself is entirely removed?

Sure. Tried that to a certain extent, they pick it up from their peers and from what they watch. But then, try to control the entirely age appropriate shows they watch, and you then end up with a child that starts feeling ostracised.

But to what degree? If you want to home school your child and declare them genderless, go ahead. But tell us, how confusing is it for a child to also be brought up as 'genderless'.

How about all children be brought up to accept their sexed bodies, to feel that their sexed bodies are right for them and beautiful just the way they are, and fuck off with any of this 'gendered' crap at all. Stereotypes, wrong body everything.

But hypothetically if society as a collective agreed to raise children free of gender then you believe there would be no gender dysphoria?

I think that if you really can’t understand the relevance of comparing racial or national or social or any other contexts to the transgender debate, then you aren’t really well placed to start philosophical debates at all. It sounds like you need to do a lot more reading, thinking and maturing to get beyond personal anecdotes to social and ethical arguments.

You also mix up gender and sex constantly, and don’t seem to have a good academic or personal understanding of the terms, which does require some further reflection. Equally, it’s a basic point that if you try to generalise and ventriloquise what others think, they can perfectly well tell you you are wrong.

Can you not understand that the requests of people to be treated as the “gender they transition to” is not a neutral request, but offensive to many women and in conflict with sex-based rights and protections? If you don’t understand this, you also need to do a lot more reading around this issue.

Bear in mind, too, that it was you who not only started this whole thought experiment, but also introduced all the personal detail about being a trans man, not posters, who were engaging with your posts. Why now complain that you didn’t expect philosophical questions and are annoyed at posters interpreting the personal details you provided?

All of this stuff sounds just a bit immature and teenage; and fair enough if you are a young teenager, that is expected — we understand that — but if you want to engage in a complex debate with philosophical thought experiments with adults who often have decades of thinking about these things behind them, you need to be a little more equipped with reading, research and arguments.

It would help to go away and read a great deal, widely, in the history of feminism, sexuality, ideas of gender, psychiatry and psychology, and so on (and, most importantly, reading stuff you don’t agree with, or don’t think you’ll agree with, as well as stuff you do agree with - it’s the only way to learn). Start by really reading some proper second wave feminism - it’s very varied and complex and has a long history - and some history of homosexuality and identity politics.

NB - there is zero research evidence for transgender identity relating to “hormones in the womb”. This is something people have been desperate to find proof of for decades (most often for homosexuality), and there has never been any serious findings that lead to this. (The environment in utero is so complex that how could you possibly expect to find any serious correlation?) However, there has been a lot of work suggesting that identity issues can be a form of social and peer contagion.