‘Trans women have been using women's spaces for years’

[DameHelena]

What does one say to this argument? I’m instinctively sceptical but I don’t know if I’m right to be.

Ha, as if that ever happens.
Even if we dont clock them as men which is highly unlikely but just assume that your friend passes, who tf compliments women on their hair. Ffs never happened to me yet in a toilet or changing room.
And shoes? Dont make me laugh, I've got some splendid shoes and boots and yes people do ask where I got them, but its never been said in the toilet.

and because it hasn't happened to you it never happens?

and because it hasn't happened to you it never happens?

Well clearly the toilet conversations happen to you. Which would suggest you instigate them. Which is somewhat strange. But may in turn might explain your 'thinking'.

@VampireMoney

My best friend is a transwoman. You'd walk past her in the loos and never even know she's trans. You might even compliment her on her beautiful hair or her outfit or ask where she got her shoes. She might say she loves your lipstick shade. And you'd go on with your day not knowing you'd spoken to a transwoman.

Get. A. Grip.

wow, we're women, so obviously our chat is about lipstick shade/where people get their shoes etc. Cos that's what being a woman is all about.

and because it hasn't happened to you it never happens

Most of us have been using bogs long enough know the protocol.

If your experience is different to the vast majority, then there’s probably something you're doing that’s causing that.

@StopLying

and because it hasn't happened to you it never happens?

Well clearly the toilet conversations happen to you. Which would suggest you instigate them. Which is somewhat strange. But may in turn might explain your 'thinking'.

"my thinking" like "I love your shoes", "where did you get that dress, if you don't mind me asking" and "could you pass me a paper towel please". Clearly I am an abnormal pervert

Men have no right to be in women's toilets irrespective of how they identify. And that includes "old school" transsexuals. Show respect for women.

@Dougalskeeper

Men have no right to be in women's toilets irrespective of how they identify. And that includes "old school" transsexuals. Show respect for women.

My thoughts exactly. Consent from women has never been sought.

I don't care how they feel inside. They are not women. And the fact that they wish to encroach on women's spaces shows that they not only do not care how we feel, but also have no respect for us whatsoever. The feeling is mutual.

"my thinking" like "I love your shoes", "where did you get that dress, if you don't mind me asking" and "could you pass me a paper towel please". Clearly I am an abnormal pervert

I certainly find it unusual that anybody would class "could you pass me a paper towel please" as a compliment.

To be fair I’ve also never been asked to pass someone a paper towel in a public toilet. I’ve never asked anyone to pass me one either. Generally I don’t find using the toilets at the Trafford centre to be a collaborative affair, it’s more go in, put dd6 in a cubicle, have a pee, wash hands, tell dd to wash her hands, tell her to use soap, tell her to rinse the soap, get myself a paper towel, dry hands, leave. There’s really no time or place to be gathering in a giggly group helping each other with paper towels and asking after each others’ lipstick shades.

Must ask DH if he and my sons are so long in the loos because they’re busy complimenting each other’s trainers and asking where they got heir hair cut and passing each other paper towels.

I certainly find it unusual that anybody would class "could you pass me a paper towel please" as a compliment.

I suppose it depends on the intended usage of the paper towel and the thought processes of the person asking the question.

A transwoman is incapable of knowing what being a woman is like, because they have never been one. It is therefore unsurprising that these kinds of interactions that some of them expect to have, or try to instigate, in women-only spaces sound so odd and awkward and no doubt make it even more obvious that they do not belong there. The make-up and outfit conversations sound like the prelude to a bad sex scene in a budget movie.

Wow, this thread has taken off! Thanks everyone for the input, and for the links.

None of these conversations happen in Women's toilets between women. They're conversations men imagine, they're things that happen in films (written by men), they're not things that happen.

Women are not a feeling in a man's head. Women's conversations are not something that happen in a man's head either.

Stop telling us what we do, how we behave. Just stop it.

@Fairislefandango

A transwoman is incapable of knowing what being a woman is like, because they have never been one. It is therefore unsurprising that these kinds of interactions that some of them expect to have, or try to instigate, in women-only spaces sound so odd and awkward and no doubt make it even more obvious that they do not belong there. The make-up and outfit conversations sound like the prelude to a bad sex scene in a budget movie.

since I am not a trans woman - who are you speaking to? Are you all speaking to people at all? This is downright weird.

Clearly I am an abnormal pervert

I didn't say that.

since I am not a trans woman - who are you speaking to? Are you all speaking to people at all? This is downright weird.

Oh I thought this was a discussion about transwomen's use of and behaviour in women-only spaces and women's acceptance or non-acceptance of this. I think my post was on-topic. That post of mine did not quote you, or refer to you in any way, so I'm not sure what you're getting at. Were you somehow under the impression that each post on MN has to be directed at a specific poster?

I have shared women's loos with a man who identified as a woman at work, until he was asked to use the disabled loos instead because he was making inappropriate comments to the women trying to use their own bloody loo at work and making them uncomfortable. A year later he started identifying as a man again.

However, toilets are the least interesting example in my view. the title says 'women's spaces'.

have men (irrespective of how they identify) been using women's hospital wards for years without women realising?

have men been competing in women's sports for years without women knowing? Everyone knew Rene Richards had been Richard Raskind for years, no? When Rene wiped the floor with women tennis players there were plenty of people who knew it wasn't fair.

have men been using the women's dorms in homeless shelters? have boys been bunking in with girls on school trips?

No

this is all new

1. when men used women's spaces plenty of women noticed and they didn't like it

2. now, more men are trying to use women's spaces. and women still notice. and they still don't like it

Just to echo what has been said about the entirely imaginary "ladies' loo lipstick and shoe conversations", and to echo the style of the writer:

That. Doesn't. Happen.

"my thinking" like "I love your shoes", "where did you get that dress, if you don't mind me asking" and "could you pass me a paper towel please". Clearly I am an abnormal pervert

I have no idea what you are. But if you think you're an abnormal pervert then obviously you would know better. I don't know you, after all. I've clearly never come across you at the wash basins in the women's toilet. Because someone who gives... compliments all the time I would have remembered and backed away slowly. Because it's unusual behaviour, especially directed at strangers in the toilet.

We are all perfectly aware of what sex you are Catherine

Maybe in really really posh society toilets at a society event- because people are there to see and be seen, and aren't wrangling their shopping and children. It's the kind of place where you might go and touch up your hair and lipstick, top up your perfume,check your stocking seams are straight... maybe.

Not in the real world.

"I love your shoes", "where did you get that dress, if you don't mind me asking" and "could you pass me a paper towel please". Clearly I am an abnormal pervert

You have an abnormal definition of the word compliment. I couldn't comment on anything further, and I would rather you didn't offer me enough data to comment on it.

However, I would like more data on the conversations you have in toilets. Given we've found out you think being asked for tissue is a compliment, I suggest a segmented bar chart would be appropriate. Otherwise the height of any compliment bar will be meaningless.

Or just do a bar chart with different bars for each type of compliment you receive. I'm not fussed either way, so long as "may I have a paper towel?" and "lovely shoes" can be visually differentiated.

@Lovelyricepudding

We are all perfectly aware of what sex you are Catherine

humor me - what sex am I?