It is time to end the hysteria in transgender debate - Times Sport Section

[Igneococcus]

Matt Dickinson is an idiot, sorry, I can't phrase it any more eloquently:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2366828e-ab99-11ec-b5dd-c16e85f55725?shareToken=b220fdbbefe00419d8f7f88a8f55b890

I'm not sure I can bear to read it. Is it going to be as awful as the Independent piece about data....

It's some of the worst bit of biased drivel I have read lately.

That's a lot of words to say I don't care about women.

It's actually unintentionally hilarious. It consists entirely of arguments made by Philippa York, quoting from the article, "Philippa York, who as Robert Millar was one of Britain’s finest road cyclists,"

Maybe the writer should have tried speaking to Sharron Davies or another woman who can see what the issue is.

Hysteria. Nice

I really don't believe I'm hysterical because I can point to the physical differences between men and women.

Some people say LT's height has been exaggerated. That may be true. But it's not LT's height I object to. A tall female swimmer would have an advantage over their competition but it would not be an unfair advantage. LT could be 5' and still be in the wrong category.

Wow, forget hysteria. It’s all testeria and transperbole!

He didn’t bother to talk to any women, not even those currently losing out to Thomas or York.:

“It felt important to talk to York before writing about Thomas, and the wider discussion of trans athletes, because how many of us know a trans person?”

He repeats York’s lie (disingenuous statement if I was feeling generous) that the IOC rules changed in 2003. They allowed transsexual after full surgery in then. The rules only changed to allow fully intact men on hormones in 2015.

I hope that even the uneducated reading this will realize it’s not remotely based in fact, but is an entirely male view from someone who hasn’t given a single moment’s thought to how women feel.

Even the headline using the word hysteria to describe opposition to womens sport being destroyed is rage inducing.

We're not supposed to be organising people by capability. It's not 'average male swimmers and excellent females swim roughly equal times, therefore are fair competition'.

They are pitting the very best of one category against the average of another category and calling it fairness when that person is cheating.

@tabbycatstripy

I really don't believe I'm hysterical because I can point to the physical differences between men and women.

Some people say LT's height has been exaggerated. That may be true. But it's not LT's height I object to. A tall female swimmer would have an advantage over their competition but it would not be an unfair advantage. LT could be 5' and still be in the wrong category.

Well said.

It’s been ratioed to fuck on twitter. I’m assuming given The Times stance on this generally, that they thought they ought to throw something in for ‘balance’ (no matter how terrible it is)

Oh the irony that he chose to use the word “hysteria” in his title. So he’s basically saying “keep quiet women” in that title alone.

“A piece about Lia Thomas walking around with genitalia out,” York says. “You just know it didn’t happen. This issue of ‘where are they going to get changed?’ Just because you are trans does not mean you are going to sexually assault somebody.”

Ah the old 'women are lying' trope.

Someone should send York this photo. As a former pro cyclist, I'd like York to explain why a massively out of shape male can beat a super fit woman.

Plus (not to bang on) while these female athletes are working as hard as they can in every way, LT's argument (poor as it is) relies on bringing LT's times down. It's actually helped LT to swim more slowly than LT is capable of swimming, because those who agree with LT can now say, 'See, look - the times are very similar.'

Awful article.
Just begging for someone to get highlighters out, point out in full colour all of the errors, flaws and lies, and then get the times to reprint the edited version.

The comments are good though. This is the top one:

"Men shouldn't compete in women's events. This is not a complicated issue . You are talking rubbish and you know it."

And the second best rated:

"Seems like someone trying to defend the indefensible. There can be no justification at all for allowing someone who has grown up as a male to compete against women at any level of sport."

A bit further down, someone asks:

"Do you really think that a fairly OK male athlete would want to transition because they would then have the chance to be a slightly better than fairly OK female athlete?"

And gets:

"Yes"

As a cyclist, York had a reputation for being taciturn and could be uncooperative with the media. Jeff Connor, author of Wide Eyed & Legless: Inside the Tour de France was told to "fuck off" when requesting an interview during the 1987 Tour de France. When told this, commentator Phil Liggett replied, "That sounds like Millar, he's been really awkward with us in the past. Personally, I think it's a disgrace. He has a duty to his sponsor to represent the team and you don't do that by telling journalists to 'fuck off'."[30] During commentary for Stage 23 of the 1987 Tour de France, Liggett stated "[It has been a] very disappointing Tour for Robert. He has lost a lot of popularity, too, one has to say. He won't speak to journalists and the team itself [Panasonic] is also becoming discontented with Robert this year."

From York's wiki page. What a delightful sounding person.

@Clymene

Hysteria. Nice

Men “speak with anger and concern” Women are “hysterical” (must be those crazy wondering wombs)

I’m surprised he didn’t call our voice shrill. (But maybe that’s because he didn’t actually speak to a woman for the interview?)

I keep hearing that argument: 'Do you really think someone would transition just to win the women's swimming event?'

No, I absolutely don't. I also don't care. LT's reasons for transitioning are LT's business. It doesn't make LT female and therefore it's not fair competition, for all the scientific reasons we are aware of already.

And nice, calling the women liars about Lia exposing Lia’s penis in the changing rooms. But York, who wasn’t there, knows it didn’t happen.

It’s an awful article but at least The Times is allowing comments (the overwhelming majority of which are supportive of women not trans women taking part in womens sport).
Last week they ran a piece on a trans woman banker but wouldn’t allow any comments.

That is a shockingly biased piece. All the old tropes are there. Ugh

Yes, the accusation that the women saying Thomas’ john thomas was on show are lying is a little annoying, but York’s utter obliviousness to how the women feel is summed up here:

Check out a widely used photograph of Lia Thomas, the American transgender swimmer, after she won at a major college event last week — and, according to many, sent women’s sport hurtling towards oblivion.

As Thomas stands on the top step of the podium, she towers over her competitors. They appear to be snubbing her, gathering in a separate trio. It is a stark image of “otherness”.

Philippa York, who as Robert Millar was one of Britain’s finest road cyclists, asks me to look at that photo and the powerful message it sends. “She looks 6ft 10in,” York says. “It’s like the three women are actively avoiding her because she’s a giant, and scary.”

Scary? There is no sign of that whatsoever. Why would they be scared in this situation. There’s an explanation quoted of what actually happened from one of the young women, presumably in a failed attempt to look balanced, but York’s assumption that it’s a deliberate attempt to paint Thomas as scary is so far off mark it’s laughable.

When I saw that photo, I presumed they were having a private celebration between the first three women in the race, perhaps in particular showing solidarity with the poor young woman whose podium space was stolen. They might be shunning Thomas because they feel they’ve been cheated, but they are certainly not remotely frightened.

But I guess strawman arguments and half-truths is all they’re left with.

“How many trans-positive stories do you read?” York asks. “If there are 30 trans stories in a week in a newspaper, do you think any are about a happy person fitting well into life?”

Another classic quote. No, there aren’t many stories about happy people fitting well into life. Why would that make the news? There are still quite a few celebrating men who suddenly found life very exciting as they ran upstairs with their newly grown “breasts” though. Wonder why York doesn’t mention those?

The ultimate transperbole is left for the last line though:

“The question is not really whether trans athletes can compete,” she says. “It’s, should they exist?”

Classic!