It is time to end the hysteria in transgender debate - Times Sport Section

[Igneococcus]

Matt Dickinson is an idiot, sorry, I can't phrase it any more eloquently:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2366828e-ab99-11ec-b5dd-c16e85f55725?shareToken=b220fdbbefe00419d8f7f88a8f55b890

Also worth reposting this: what Pippa York Gets Wrong.

@crispsarny

Hysteria lol, same old, man lecturing women…..

Couldn’t have put it better. The whole article reeks of “Women! Know your place!”.

Good comments. Including comments that no women were interviewed / are quoted.

@Shortpoet

You know what would be really inclusive?

Celebrating a trans woman winning the men’s race showing that it doesn’t matter how you present yourself out of the pool, you can still win at men’s sports.

But that won’t be Lia because Lia can’t swim well enough to beat the 261 men that are better.

Absolutely. It's men who should be 'inclusive', that precious word they keep throwing at us but never apply to themselves.

We should start calling them and their sports 'trans exclusionary' because that's what they are (trans and non-binary identifying females compete in women's categories, but that's rarely mentioned).

So disappointed in this article. I wonder if it got through because (a) it’s sport and (b) to counter all the stick The Times gets for allowing Janice Turner to say it how it really is so often. And they also have a broadly GC-supportive column today by Gerard Baker. On balance, it has been one of the better papers.

I'll take the occasional distorted article like this alienating a significant segment of their sports readers if the broader law, policy, and society conflicts get reported rationally. The Times know that if need be, they can jettison this article in the future with a "what were we thinking!" at little cost.

'We should start calling them and their sports 'trans exclusionary' because that's what they are (trans and non-binary identifying females compete in women's categories, but that's rarely mentioned).'

Yes. Men's sports are exclusionary. They need to make space for gender non-conforming people. Lots and lots of it.

@nauticant of course they think hysterical wimmins don't read the sports section so the sensible men are allowed to comment

Some idiot on Twitter arguing that gender-segregated sports might one day be regarded as obsolete, and we might agree that categorisation by size or weight or some other factor makes sense...

Once more for the challenged: men are still stronger and faster than women when they weigh the same amount. Men are still stronger and faster than women when they are the same height. The difference is very clear to the eye, as per when my male partner, who is not particularly heavier than I am, can very easily open a jar and I can't, or when my father, who is thirty years my senior and getting on quite a bit, and not particularly taller than I am (anymore), can still heft a sofa and I cannot.

Men are stronger than women.

Males and females is the correct segregation.

Such a biased article. I’ve just posted a comment. It obviously passed the algorithms as it’s live.

How is it some people can see that even in my DDs U9 rugby team there needs to be extra protections put in place for her as the only girl on the team, whereas other people genuinely think there is no difference between people who have gone through male puberty and those who have gone through female puberty?

It is a stark image of “otherness”

That'll be because whether they are genuinely dysphoric men, or men who just want to assert their dominance over women, transwomen are 'other' as are transmen. It's no good them trying to shoehorn themselves into a sex category in which they will never belong,

I completely support an (adult) individual's right to make whatever body modifications and clothing choices they see fit. I cannot and will not accept that men are women and women are men. TW are 'other', TM are 'other'. No better or lesser than any other human, but TW are not women (they are not the same as women and never will be) and TM are not men.

@Clymene

Hysteria. Nice

Of course women are hysterical. Didn’t you know we are ruled by our wombs, which give us crazy ideas and easily outweigh our feeble little brains? Ask any mediaeval doctor.

Clickbait, pure clickbait. Bless our Pippa for being stunning and brave enough to step forward and model what actual hysteria looks like with “The question is not really whether trans athletes can compete,” she says. “It’s, should they exist?”

I'm expecting to see a comparison being made between the likes of Lia Thomas blazing a trail for males to compete in women's sports and the bold female athletes whose direct actions and quiet negotiations over the years are responsible for women being able to take part in competitive sport at all.

They know who is a woman when they want to slur them as ‘hysterical’

So strange they didn’t include Fallon Fox on their little list of elite TW athletes.

I cannot imagine why that was, because certainly a lot of people expressed the view that male people, regardless of their gender identity, shouldn’t batter female people - even when it’s “legitimised” as sport.

It’s just so dreadfully adolescent: “not letting me do whatever I want means you don’t want me to exist!” (Apologies to all perfectly sensible adolescents who’d never say something so cringeworthy & self-obsessed.)

@tabbycatstripy

I keep hearing that argument: 'Do you really think someone would transition just to win the women's swimming event?'

No, I absolutely don't. I also don't care. LT's reasons for transitioning are LT's business. It doesn't make LT female and therefore it's not fair competition, for all the scientific reasons we are aware of already.

Exactly. Motivation doesn't matter. The point is that LT shouldn't be swimming against women regardless of whether LT's motives are pure or dishonourable.

As it happens, I very much doubt LT's motives are pure.

It's interesting how deadnaming is really awful except when you've had a super successful professional cycling career under your deadname.

@tabbycatstripy

I keep hearing that argument: 'Do you really think someone would transition just to win the women's swimming event?'

No, I absolutely don't. I also don't care. LT's reasons for transitioning are LT's business. It doesn't make LT female and therefore it's not fair competition, for all the scientific reasons we are aware of already.

Transitioning now means changing your name and growing your hair a bit longer, and if in competitive sport, reducing your testosterone levels (no different to the treatment for prostate cancer).

Many people are still under the illusion that transitioning means taking cross-sex hormones and castration.

Trans rights groups keep telling us how hormone blockers are completely reversible, and this is what many of these trans athletes are taking. After they retire they can detransition easily.

It's interesting how deadnaming is really awful except when you've had a super successful professional cycling career under your deadname.

So many paradoxes about trans identity politics.

Are the comments still open?

Because, while it is a shite piece of work, I think the Times is allowing public feedback to equalize the fact they published it. The editors know they need to publish a balance. But letting comments through allows readers to make up their own mind as to the validity of the agenda being pushed.

So many paradoxes about trans identity politics.

The inconsistencies are rife. It is very surprising that activists just ignore them all. But that is, I guess, what ideology is all about.

@lovelyweathertoday

It's actually unintentionally hilarious. It consists entirely of arguments made by Philippa York, quoting from the article, "Philippa York, who as Robert Millar was one of Britain’s finest road cyclists,"

Maybe the writer should have tried speaking to Sharron Davies or another woman who can see what the issue is.

Let me guess. In a week with Lawson and Coe, we now have another man who does not seem to think it's necessary to speak to a woman who has been in this arena for some time and understands the issues.

Not even a chat with Ross Tucker of Science of Sport ?

These articles are always written by men aren't they?

@SapphosRock

These articles are always written by men aren't they?

Tsk, tsk. Why would you think otherwise?