Jen Ives LGB Alliance Twitter Row

[GrimDamnFanjo]

twitter.com/jenivescomedian/status/1506429824235151366?s=21

So, trans woman infiltrates conference, row ensues. Who'd have though it?

So. It's 'transphobic' to talk about women in terms of biology.

I've already been called transphobic by him today, for saying men can't get pregnant.

you had your own self-important suggestions as to how she should improve

DadJoke, you are the very dictionary definition of mansplaining. I'm staggered that you feel compelled to come onto a feminist board and dispense instructions for how women ought to think, talk and behave and think you are in the right. It's really quite astonishing. And I've met quite a lot of sexist, misogynist behaviours in my time.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Dunno why.

I mean, there isn't a law that says she has to, is there?

The only reason I can see for arguing about what language she uses is because you think she should be kind and respectful to other groups because they're marginalised?

As already covered, male transitioners don't have to behave in a kind and respectful way to women, an extremely marginalised group, not even lesbian and bisexual women, who are discriminated against on the basis of sex and sexuality.

This, it's all one way. Hibo must be sensitive and inclusive, to the luxury beliefs of white youths in the global north. Even when she bases her activism around being a woman and having a female body. She was criticised on the linked thread for being dismissive and saying she wasn't interested. That and making a pointed remark about "chest feeding" apparently indicated that she was "slightly transphobic".

The nasty thuggish men screeching expletives and threatening abuse at women in Manchester aren't even remarked on, even though they are entirely relevant to the general theme of this thread.

TRA men know they can ignore that. Because they do, after all, understand what sex is.

You attributed words and views to me which I don't have. Please stop doing that. I'm sure you have enough stuff you disagree with me about which doesn't require you to make things up.

I've not said Hibo Wardere "must" do anything.

You've then shoehorned in "male transitioners," by which I assume you mean trans women, when this was a trans man politely asking Wardere to use inclusive language. The topic was not trans women.

As I said above, I don't think trans activists should be targetting her .

And then you swerve again to an entirely different topic.

I'm out. You aren't discussing in good faith.

It's the jarring gaslighting of it all that gets me. These men are all Mr Progressive Feminist Man, but "I am going to push my ideological beliefs about sex and gender even though it means I am ignoring obviously female oppression, and making it harder for women to challenge it. I do not think that women should be able to have spaces without men in them, or words to describe their sex, however they feel, however uncomfortable they are, however badly many men behave, because some entitled male people have sad feelings about it."

It's bullshit. I don't know if they genuinely believe it or not, but if so it's the motherlode of cognitive dissonance.

Not everything is about you, Dadjoke. You were included in my general frustration with people like you. So no it wasn't a quote and I didn't say it was, FFS

I'm out. You aren't discussing in good faith.

That's right, women disagreeing with you has to be bad faith, doesn't it? I can see how hard it must be for you not to be met with meek compliance.

You've then shoehorned in "male transitioners

No I didn't. I was quoting someone else. Read posts properly and understand that not everything is literal please.

It's bullshit. I don't know if they genuinely believe it or not, but if so it's the motherlode of cognitive dissonance.

According to Harry Frankfurt, there are people for whom it doesn't matter whether they believe it or not as they have different motivations and goals.

www2.csudh.edu/ccauthen/576f12/frankfurt__harry_-_on_bullshit.pdf

Highlights of Petrocelli paper:

•Bullshitting involves communicating with little concern for evidence or truth.

•Bullshitting behavior appears to have specific antecedents.

•People bullshit when obligated to communicate about things they know little about.

•People bullshit when expecting to receive a social pass of acceptability for it.

•Bullshitting is attenuated when social cues signal difficulty in obtaining a pass.

John V. Petrocelli, Antecedents of bullshitting, Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, Volume 76, 2018, Pages 249-258, ISSN 0022-1031,www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022103117305127

DadJoke

You've then shoehorned in "male transitioners," by which I assume you mean trans women, when this was a trans man politely asking Wardere to use inclusive language. The topic was not trans women.

She was talking to me. It is easier to follow conversations if you read posts. Even if you feel an instinctive need to avoid reading posts because there is an implication that they were posted by a woman.

But I'll recap:

This is a thread about a male transitioner using the women's toilets at a conference, against the wishes of the female attendees (lesbian and bisexual women). You said the male transitioner was entitled to use the toilets because there was no law to prevent it. I have noted that it would be kind and respectful for them to refrain, though.

As you have made it repeatedly clear that you do not think the subject of this thread is under any obligation to treat others with respect, people, including me, have taken that on board.

Unfortunately for you, your past posts about how you thought FGM campaigners should respond differently, in order to be kinder and more respectful, were extremely memorable. So Eresh and I noted the discrepancy in expectations.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I believe that Jen confirmed that the recording device was turned off while in the bathroom.

So Ives breaches boundaries by going into the women's toilets at an event where the organisers have specified they are single-sex, not single-gender, but I'm supposed to trust Ives if they say, totally turned the device off in the toilets, honest.

You may trust Ives. I am under no obligation to do so.

"True, I infiltrated a women's conference, did a secret recording and insisted on using the women's toilets. But of course I didn't do anything illegal like recording women peeing. I wouldn't dream of it."

We should try this at work.

"Yes, I went into the saferoom, which is management only, where I was not permitted to be. Yes I did go in with a large bag labelled Swag. But I didn't place any of the money in my bag, and you can't prove that I did."

There is a lot of depressing whataboutery on this thread.

Women are abused a lot by TRAs, I’ve been to enough events with aggressive protests to know that, and have been on the end of it personally a lot.

That doesn’t make screaming in someone’s face ok, just because you agree politically with the screamer.

It really doesn’t help to justify this kind of aggressive behaviour. It’s exactly what the TRAs do to us- justify the abuse as ‘punching up’ or ‘consequences’.

It also plays into the hands of people who think we’re all a load of hateful transphobes. As that video is full of aggression towards a trans person. (Whatever the context might be)

No one said it was OK. They are just tired of the hypocrisy.

And don't really think it has anything to do with us.

That doesn’t make screaming in someone’s face ok, just because you agree politically with the screamer.

I agree. Screaming in people's faces is abhorrent behaviour.

"Screaming" suggests to me shouting at the limit of your vocal range.

The video I saw showed a man challenging another man in a slightly raised loud voice.

I'm not going to defend everything he said, but he there was no screaming going on.

Using words as accurately as possible is important.

I’m not a lawyer, but it seems reasonable to me that women require single sex toilets for reasons of privacy and dignity.

It would be good to test in court that a single sex exemption could be legally invoked to exclude all men from women’s toilets.

Then if it was found NOT to be legal, the law could be changed.

Just be sure to include the space in trans men

No space required, no adjective required. Transmen are transmen. Transwomen are transwomen. Not subsets of the sex they wish they were.

Agreed, TheWord. I am told there is no law mandating that male transitioners make sure to leave the space alone of lesbian and bisexual women at their own conference.

So, I won't be making sure to use any space after the word trans.

His problem was he didn’t have a tambourine.

Then it would have been fine.

@Deliriumoftheendless

His problem was he didn’t have a tambourine.

Then it would have been fine.

Or a speedy wheeler mobility aid.

Just be sure to include the space in trans men.

No.

No space required, no adjective required. Transmen are transmen. Transwomen are transwomen. Not subsets of the sex they wish they were.

Hear, hear!

@VestofAbsurdity

Just be sure to include the space in trans men.

No.

What vest said