Jen Ives LGB Alliance Twitter Row

[GrimDamnFanjo]

twitter.com/jenivescomedian/status/1506429824235151366?s=21

So, trans woman infiltrates conference, row ensues. Who'd have though it?

Trans women use, and have used, women's toilets for decades. There is no legal impediment for them to do so

Thank you so much for putting all women and girls into risk situations with males in female sapces. So kind of you to offer us up because you are too transphobic to allow them into male spaces.

#BeKind

There is no legal impediment for them to do so.

We know. There is no legal impediment for any man to access women's spaces. There is a social contract that decent males respect women's boundaries. But unfortunately there are plenty of males regardless of personal gender identity who do not.

How would you react to a transwoman in a male toilet, DadJoke? Would you not welcome them?

There is a social contract that decent males respect women's boundaries. But unfortunately there are plenty of males regardless of personal gender identity who do not.

And to be honest, I think this is getting worse. I've never been so aware of how misogynistic and contemptuous of women as a sex class society is as now. Young women are internalising this. It's a powerful tool of patriarchal control, like the chilling effect of what happens to women when they don't go along with what men want.

Trans women use, and have used, women's toilets for decades. There is no legal impediment for them to do so.

Ug Ug Ug Ug. ....

I have not idea what you are trying to say as I have no idea what personal meanings your are ascribing to those words. I would ask you to define them but that would require us to have a common understanding of the words you are using in your definitions so that won't work...

The awful protest in Manchester last night had that as its goal. Make women too terrified to challenge or organise politically.

We've never had a non-circular definition yet.

I am guessing what you are trying to say us men have been forcing their way into women's spaces for decades in defiance of women's wishes, privacy, dignity and safety.

Either you've literally never heard of trans men, or you are being transphobic. I'm going to go with option B.

I said pregnant people, because you'd probably have found "cisgender woman and trans men" or "AFAB people" offensive, and if I'd said "women" it would have undermined the point of the argument - the purpose of the exemption is to exclude a category of women - trans women - who are by definition not AFAB.

Unless you think women aren't people, pregnant people covers it.

We had this conversation on another thread where you explained you couldn't say something like "women, and transmen" because it was too inconvenient. I see you have not reformed.

I do not give a broken Kinder Egg toy whether you think "pregnant people" covers it. Your choice to use it is both deliberately provocative and shows us all that your investment in this issue is about making life difficult for women. When it comes to your own life, you will not even bother using additive language to be inclusive to trans people because it requires you to sacrifice a second of typing time.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Screeching abuse outside a building of women talking about sexual violence and FGM, but then you think it's ok for FGM activists to be harangued by TRAs if they don't toe the gender identity ideological line, I seem to remember, Dadjoke.

I did not say that. You have a habit of this. Please stop it.

He won't say "women and trans men" without qualifying with the ridiculous "cis" term as that would imply that all women belong to the sex class of humans who can, all being well and during their fertile lives, get pregnant. When of course there are people who call themselves women who are male and some of these can father children with their sperm. He doesn't want to acknowledge the facts of life, or that sex is a thing.

I did not say that. You have a habit of this. Please stop it.

Err, yes you did.

You spent posts and posts arguing that African FGM activist Hibo Wardere should change her language to be more "inclusive" when she was being attacked by awful privileged white people on Twitter.

I did not say that. You have a habit of this. Please stop it.

We'll let people judge for themselves then. www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4170253-Anti-FGM-campaigner-Hibo-Wardere-comes-under-attack?pg=7

P.S. if there is no law that means male transitioners must stay out of the women's toilets at the request of female organisers and attendees of the Lesbian, Gay and Bisexual Alliance conference (note that sexual orientation is a protected characteristic), then there is certainly no law that compels anti-FGM campaigners to word their tweets the way you want.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4170253-Anti-FGM-campaigner-Hibo-Wardere-comes-under-attack

@Ereshkigalangcleg

You spent posts and posts arguing that African FGM activist Hibo Wardere should change her language to be more "inclusive" when she was being attacked by awful privileged white people on Twitter.

Dunno why.

I mean, there isn't a law that says she has to, is there?

The only reason I can see for arguing about what language she uses is because you think she should be kind and respectful to other groups because they're marginalised?

As already covered, male transitioners don't have to behave in a kind and respectful way to women, an extremely marginalised group, not even lesbian and bisexual women, who are discriminated against on the basis of sex and sexuality.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Either you've literally never heard of trans men, or you are being transphobic. I'm going to go with option B.

I said pregnant people, because you'd probably have found "cisgender woman and trans men" or "AFAB people" offensive, and if I'd said "women" it would have undermined the point of the argument - the purpose of the exemption is to exclude a category of women - trans women - who are by definition not AFAB.

Unless you think women aren't people, pregnant people covers it.

We had this conversation on another thread where you explained you couldn't say something like "women, and transmen" because it was too inconvenient. I see you have not reformed.

I do not give a broken Kinder Egg toy whether you think "pregnant people" covers it. Your choice to use it is both deliberately provocative and shows us all that your investment in this issue is about making life difficult for women. When it comes to your own life, you will not even bother using additive language to be inclusive to trans people because it requires you to sacrifice a second of typing time.

No, I didn't say that. What I said was:

“Some women and trans men” is perfectly reasonable"

Just be sure to include the space in trans men.

As we were talking about strict legal definitions, "pregnant people" did a much better job than "woman and trans men", because "women" includes trans women, and in this context, they are specifically being excluded.

I could have said "pregnant women and trans men." I didn't think of it.

I could have said "pregnant women and trans men." I didn't think of it.

Odd, that.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

You spent posts and posts arguing that African FGM activist Hibo Wardere should change her language to be more "inclusive" when she was being attacked by awful privileged white people on Twitter.

That's a swerve. Please stop attributing thoughts and opinions to me which I do not have.

I did not say or imply that "I think it's ok for FGM activists to be harangued by TRAs if they don't toe the gender identity ideological line"

What I said was the opposite:

"I think that transgender people and allies should leave her be - there are much more worthy targets. Hibo is doing good work."

"I have, in fact, suggested it would be a good idea for transgender people who have tweeted at her to leave her alone. "

"I don’t think transgender people should target Hibo Wardere"

"Almost all the signal boosting of the ill-advised transgender people who have commented to or about Wardere comes from GC feminists complaining about it."

Dunno why.

I mean, there isn't a law that says she has to, is there?

The only reason I can see for arguing about what language she uses is because you think she should be kind and respectful to other groups because they're marginalised?

As already covered, male transitioners don't have to behave in a kind and respectful way to women, an extremely marginalised group, not even lesbian and bisexual women, who are discriminated against on the basis of sex and sexuality.

This, it's all one way. Hibo must be sensitive and inclusive, to the luxury beliefs of white youths in the global north. Even when she bases her activism around being a woman and having a female body. She was criticised on the linked thread for being dismissive and saying she wasn't interested. That and making a pointed remark about "chest feeding" apparently indicated that she was "slightly transphobic".

The nasty thuggish men screeching expletives and threatening abuse at women in Manchester aren't even remarked on, even though they are entirely relevant to the general theme of this thread.

TRA men know they can ignore that. Because they do, after all, understand what sex is.

Just be sure to include the space in trans men.

No, thank you.

Do you ever get the horrible feeling that it's not actually up to you how women choose to speak? I hate to break it to you ...

'When she was asked to include trans men by a trans man, she said "Not interested, bye." Coming from someone who clearly believes trans men are women, that's pretty harsh.'

'She's clearly slightly transphobic, yes.'

'When she talks about women, she's explicitly referring to biology, as do most posters here - it's trans exclusionary, the very definition of transphobic. '

'When she talks about women, she's explicitly referring to biology, as do most posters here - it's trans exclusionary, the very definition of transphobic. '

So. It's 'transphobic' to talk about women in terms of biology. Glad we have the definitive answer on that. Because loads of people tell us that there's no way TRAs are saying stuff like that. But there it is, in black and white.

DadJoke

You minimised the abuse she received and downplayed it as a "handful". You literally only popped up on the thread to talk about trans people and how important it is to talk about them at all times.

You made a huge issue about how you wouldn't donate to her unless she said "trans men" and you had your own self-important suggestions as to how she should improve, as a man who has known about FGM for all of 5 minutes (please don't take this literally). You called her transphobic. You used mealy-mouthed language about the abusive posts she received, that they were "ill advised" (because of the shitty optics I imagine) you failed to condemn them particularly strongly and you made excuses for the people who made them.