Boris has nailed colours to mast

[Ridcully82]

On gender transition at PMQs:" biology overwhelmingly important", preceded by urging respect for those feeling they need to transition. Sounded calm, respectful,and kinda where we were on course before the TRA actions.

Liz Truss is an asset to the Tories on gender ideology. She was quite happy to go on Radio 4 and say to Nick Robinson 'Women do have vaginas, Nick'

But when Labour did have a leader committed to those values, and a policy platform based on them, so many were adamant they couldn't vote for such a "loony left" and needed to wait for the Labour party to become moderate and trustworthy and professional again. Well here it is - great. We can't have it both ways. The electorate is either willing to take on radical change or they get the same sh slightly watered down.

I don't think it's as simple as more of less left wing. There just isn't a simple line there.

Yes, there would, at least on paper but maybe really, have been more social programs funneling money down.

But as far as the big, real leftist kind of projects, with vibrant autonomous communities and real jobs at the other end? They still reined in Corbyn in terms of his real leftist principles in terms of the EU, and lots of those former Labour voters went Tory as a result. A "more left" party that calls people concerned about movement of labour bigots? Come on! And the focus on identity politics among Momentum types was even worse than the rest of the LP, again, not traditionally leftist.

So you had a situation where those who were worried about spending and some of their more collectivist political ideas were turned off, but it also wasn't actually all that appealing to those who wanted a real left wing government.

It's not really just about 'voting for Johnson', or not. The Tory party is the only major party where I could join, state my GC views, say I wanted to be politically active in my community and not be treated as a pariah.

Political participation isn't just about holding your nose and voting. How can you even consider voting for a party where your actual beliefs, lawfully expressed, would see you doxxed, bullied, unable to freely stand for election, unable to attend your own conference, and subject to motion after motion declaring you a bigot?

as midlifecrash said, "it means the damage this is doing to Labour has been noticed"

@quixote9

as midlifecrash said, "it means the damage this is doing to Labour has been noticed"

And it'll only continue to be noticed if labour crash and burn. If people vote anyway for Labour because of tribal thinking, this issue will be not only considered too niche for further discussion, but Labour, Rights hoarding accusers,cervix is taboo silencers will have the reigns.

I'm sorry but I don't think that will go well.

Not sure how reliable the polls are but Kantar yesterday had the Tories and Labour neck and neck at 36%. Data collected last week. BJ making scientific sense at PMQ will only have helped him.

This is still a niche issue when it comes to actual swinging votes (most people I know understand perfectly well what a woman is but are not as aware of the policy issues that arise from definition A versus definition B).

But even if this issue only gets BJ a few hundred thousand votes, it's not good for Labour, who are struggling to beat the Tories even on Starmer's very best day. Which is because he's a bit of a melt.

As someone said on the Mumsnet trending on twitter thread:

If men can say they are women and women have to believe them - it's over

And as someone said upthread here IIRC:

I don't want to find out how much further this agenda wants to go

Indeed.

@tabbycatstripy

It's not really just about 'voting for Johnson', or not. The Tory party is the only major party where I could join, state my GC views, say I wanted to be politically active in my community and not be treated as a pariah.

Political participation isn't just about holding your nose and voting. How can you even consider voting for a party where your actual beliefs, lawfully expressed, would see you doxxed, bullied, unable to freely stand for election, unable to attend your own conference, and subject to motion after motion declaring you a bigot?

Lovely summary. I'm sick of being expected to vote for a party prepared to bully, harass and insult me for wanting my interests and rights acknowledged.

@tabbycatstripy

It's not really just about 'voting for Johnson', or not. The Tory party is the only major party where I could join, state my GC views, say I wanted to be politically active in my community and not be treated as a pariah.

Political participation isn't just about holding your nose and voting. How can you even consider voting for a party where your actual beliefs, lawfully expressed, would see you doxxed, bullied, unable to freely stand for election, unable to attend your own conference, and subject to motion after motion declaring you a bigot?

This is such a good point and is the crux of what is so bad about this situation. Only the Tories are standing up for freedom of speech.

I have NEVER voted Tory but will do at the next election on this issue alone. It’s too important for my daughter.

And by the way - for any person reading this who has an interest in the Labour Party - I have formed a group of women and am sharing this whole debate including Labour ridiculous position. They are all peaking one by one.

Zillamop, when was that radio interview on please ?

@tabbycatstripy

It's not really just about 'voting for Johnson', or not. The Tory party is the only major party where I could join, state my GC views, say I wanted to be politically active in my community and not be treated as a pariah.

Political participation isn't just about holding your nose and voting. How can you even consider voting for a party where your actual beliefs, lawfully expressed, would see you doxxed, bullied, unable to freely stand for election, unable to attend your own conference, and subject to motion after motion declaring you a bigot?

Beautifully put.

And there is the ingratitude to, and disregard for, the legions of boring, old non-trans, middle-aged and older women who have collectively given millions of hours to envelope-stuffing and doorstep conversations. I suspect that Labour will find that the green-haired shouty mob aren't quite as committed to the hard graft as they are to silencing women on Twitter. Social media is changing political campaigning, but it still requires a lot of boring grunt work. The Tories will still have women to do that.

Only the Tories are standing up for freedom of speech

Mmm, I think there are some genuinely concerned about freedom, but most are standing up for getting one over on Labour. But, for women, even a half-hearted ally is better than no ally at all.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

Only the Tories are standing up for freedom of speech

Mmm, I think there are some genuinely concerned about freedom, but most are standing up for getting one over on Labour. But, for women, even a half-hearted ally is better than no ally at all.

Even if that half hearted ally are renowned liars who break their manifesto promises whenever it’s expedient? I wouldn’t believe a Tory if they told me the earth was round.

I wouldn’t believe a Tory if they told me the earth was round.

Really, none of them?

A pp made a good point re Starmer willing to look past biological reality - to what end I’m not sure but it’s not for women.

@MangyInseam

I wouldn’t believe a Tory if they told me the earth was round.

Really, none of them?

None of the current front bench for sure. A few of those who are no longer in parliament perhaps but in electoral terms they don’t count. Any Tory that supports this corrupt, mendacious government is beyond help as far as I’m concerned.

I think Liz Truss is playing a blinder, supported by other good Tory women and the Baroness.

Holding onto the Equalities portfolio despite taking on one of the major offices of state. Getting Kemi Badenoch in as her deputy, having Kishwer Falkner appointed as Chair of the EHRC, getting Jackie Doyle-Price appointed to the Women and Equalities Committee, encouraging Government Departments not to use Stonewall. All without any great fuss. Now, finally, it looks as if Boris is off the fence, possibly on the advice from the Australian political guru he recently brought over.

What strikes me is that all these women are solid. Good CVs and a reasonable amount of common sense. Rosie Duffield is similar. But what about other Labour and LibDem women. Agree with their politics of not, I am not sure I would trust them to walk my dog, let alone run the country.

But the Tories don't actually give a shit about women and children, they are just saying the right things to get your vote.

I'm in a Tory safe seat so I'm planning to spoil any ballot paper with woman adult human female

It helps that they know what women and children are, though

Only when it comes to fucking them over. Or, in Johnson’s case and women, just fucking them.

It helps that they know what women and children are, though.

They don't give a shit about that. They will change their minds tomorrow if they perceive that it's a vote-winner.

@Joystir59

But the Tories don't actually give a shit about women and children, they are just saying the right things to get your vote.

But if Labour can’t even say something that sounds right to women before they are elected then I don’t want to see what they pass after.

People are free to vote as they wish of course for their own reasons, but this is a fundamental issue for me.